Discussion:
Season Ender
(too old to reply)
l***@large.com
2004-04-13 00:53:56 UTC
Permalink
So, taking into consideration what we've already been asked to accept --
whether it's made sense or not -- (i.e. that Bette and CC have a thing;
that Kit is confused about a drag king; that Dana's lost her mind with
Tanya; that Shane loves a woman for no earthly reasons we've been shown;
and that Jenny somehow has become the sane one) -- accepting all that
unbelievable stuff as the starting point, the ep basically worked. It
left everyone with a choice (as Wolf put it), and things did build to a
colossal head in that sense. Or close to one. (Shane's "climax" was weak
imo but thrown in the mix it didn't matter much.)

Being positive, I thought the scenes between Bette and CC were good as
far as the "written" passion goes, (i.e. the scenes were written fine
but imo they don't have chemistry and I don't like the storyline, so...)
Still we finally saw women being intimate vs M/F sex. But the scene of
them making it up against Bette's office door was just ... not even a
smidge believable. Anyone would have come knocking to see what the
banging was about. And CC didn't even have her hammer with her. <g>

I *did* like how they all converged inside the Jesus gallery... and
Bette walking around holding Tina's hand. (Those two are *h-o-t*
together.) And I also liked how Tina saw Bette and CC at a distance, and
just the little gestures and intimacy she witnessed said it all. Ilene
didn't hit us over the head with it and we all got it. Well done.
Carrying through I also liked how Bette sees Tina sitting, staring at
her in the dressing mirror, and knows something is wrong immediately.
(But I did wonder about the ride home. Guess Tina would have waited to
get home. In shock and not wanting to talk in the car where you can't
really confront and look at each other.) But as far as Tina's slap I was
hoping for a bigger wallop. <g>

The sex scene afterwards was an emotional roller coaster... wondering at
first if Bette was raping Tina... watching the hurt explode into the
love that's obviously there. Laurel was amazing. So was Jennifer but it
was really Tina's scene. It was intense. But I wouldn't have liked it if
Tina stayed with Bette afterwards. It was good how it ended with her at
Alice's... the scene of her walking to the board.... very good.

And speaking of Alice, we didn't see a whole lot of her. But she's the
one who's always there. So sweet when Mr. Piddles was gone. (Did you
catch Tanya standing behind rolling her eyes at all the fuss over a dead
cat? Referring to Mr. P as "it"?) And thank gawd she comes to her senses
and raps on Dana's door at 4am to lay a wet one on her. I'd read a
spoiler about this months ago, so I knew it was coming. But I thought
they did a good job of foreshadowing it by Alice paying particular attn
to Dana over the season without being too obvious about it. I'm not sure
I can see Alice and D. together... they're both kind of goofy... maybe.
But I liked how Alice pulled back and Dana kissed *Alice* then. Rather
than leaving it all on Alice and not letting us know what Dana's
reaction was. It is definitely something to look forward to next season.

Shane. I don't have much to say there b/c that whole affair was wacky to
begin with. Shane is the maverick... never settles down... I know she
expressed an interest in finding someone on Seaman (the ship party), but
I don't see her being so stupid as to pick a married woman with kids who
has a shitload of money and is used to a certain lifestyle. Shane is not
that stupid. Plus I never saw any chemistry between them and nothing to
lead me to believe they were anything more than a casual fling to each
other. Would like to hear what others think.

The Jenny storyline was kind of nice after all, in this ep, if you take
out the entire middle boring part with Gene. The little trapeze girl
seems nice (and she turned out to be a pretty good actor too imo), and I
liked it that they all ended up all playing a board game together rather
than in bed. Maybe Jenny *is* growing up.

Seems Marina will be back since she thinks she's in love, unless we come
back 'after the fact' next season to find J. broke her heart, she sold
the Planet and moved somewhere.

And Kit. Ok. To be nice I *think* what they're trying to say is that Kit
is looking for love when love is staring her in the face. That Ivan is
perfect except she's a woman and Kit wants a man. Well you know what?
That's a HUGE fucking "except." I wouldn't be with a guy who thought he
could give me what I wanted, and I don't know why Kit should try to be
with a woman. And what was with going to the exhibit in drag? And
performing that number in the parking lot? Was that supposed to be
funny? Campy? Serious? Cute? And are we really supposed to think that no
one realizes Ivan is a woman when in drag? Or not? And couldn't they
have picked someone more physically compatible with Kit? Or was that the
point? That love doesn't always look like what it's 'supposed' to? Well,
that's fine, but 'they don't got love.' Kit said she wanted a man. Ivan
didn't hear that. Maybe Ivan figures Kit just needs a little
encouragement, but I never saw any tendencies in Kit in this series. In
fact when Shane said, "Liquor in the front poker in the rear" (play on
words from old ep), Kit said, "No thanks." And another point of
confusion for me... Kit keeps saying she wants a man, and she knows Ivan
is a woman, and insists she isn't leading Ivan on... yet she treats Ivan
like a male date, taking her arm, calling her "he." If Kit wanted to
discourage Ivan's romantic interest in her, wouldn't she at least refer
to Ivan as SHE and not take her arm as if she were her male date?

Oh well. Whatever. I did think the look Ivan gave Tanya at Mr. Piddles'
funeral was funny (after Tanya finally shook her hand and Ivan was
moving on). And Ivan has a certain charm that does grow on you, but her
gelled back hair reminds me of a mullet and her drag thing is too weird
in that I don't know how she expects anyone to take that seriously -- or
maybe she doesn't.

But all in all accepting the foundation as they laid it out for us --
for better or worse -- I give it a B. And I *do* want to know what
happens next season and I *will* watch. So they accomplished something,
despite all our complaints. :)
Ltcomdr
2004-04-13 20:03:53 UTC
Permalink
(***@large.com) wrote in news:***@4ax.com:

.........................cut here....................................
Post by l***@large.com
Being positive, I thought the scenes between Bette and CC were good as
far as the "written" passion goes, (i.e. the scenes were written fine
but imo they don't have chemistry and I don't like the storyline,
so...) Still we finally saw women being intimate vs M/F sex. But the
scene of them making it up against Bette's office door was just ...
not even a smidge believable. Anyone would have come knocking to see
what the banging was about. And CC didn't even have her hammer with
her. <g>
I'm in agreement with you on the door rattling thing, anyone in the museum
could have heard that pounding and figured out from the rhythm what the
freckin' hell was going down (pun intended).
Post by l***@large.com
I *did* like how they all converged inside the Jesus gallery... and
Bette walking around holding Tina's hand. (Those two are *h-o-t*
together.)
Again I agree, hot, hot, hot!
Post by l***@large.com
And I also liked how Tina saw Bette and CC at a distance,
and just the little gestures and intimacy she witnessed said it all.
Ilene didn't hit us over the head with it and we all got it. Well
done.
I too prefer not to be treated like an idiot that cannot read the signs.
And thought that was well done.
Post by l***@large.com
Carrying through I also liked how Bette sees Tina sitting,
staring at her in the dressing mirror, and knows something is wrong
immediately. (But I did wonder about the ride home. Guess Tina would
have waited to get home. In shock and not wanting to talk in the car
where you can't really confront and look at each other.) But as far as
Tina's slap I was hoping for a bigger wallop. <g>
Yeah, it must have been a quiet ride home. I'd say Bette would have guessed
something was up before Tina was staring at her.
Post by l***@large.com
The sex scene afterwards was an emotional roller coaster... wondering
at first if Bette was raping Tina... watching the hurt explode into
the love that's obviously there. Laurel was amazing. So was Jennifer
but it was really Tina's scene. It was intense. But I wouldn't have
liked it if Tina stayed with Bette afterwards. It was good how it
ended with her at Alice's... the scene of her walking to the board....
very good.
OK I was pretty surprised by this scene - at first I too was wondering if
Bette was raping Tina and I was all woo! Hold up there that's outta order
and wondering if this was how they thought to finish the season they must
be made in the head! But then I did see the transition into 'love' or the
most desperate version of break up sex I've ever seen.

When Tina turned the tables on her and Bette let out a scream/moan/cry (at
first I thought she'd done a Mike Tyson on her and bite her ear off... LMAO
now) and then realised the gut wrenching anguish they two of them were
going through - it was pretty extreme but very well done.

I thought the board thing was a little DQ we saw Tina stumbling over saying
that Bette had an affair but I think the board thing was a little much. But
I didn't mind it.
l***@large.com
2004-04-14 03:52:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ltcomdr
Post by l***@large.com
The sex scene afterwards was an emotional roller coaster... wondering
at first if Bette was raping Tina... watching the hurt explode into
the love that's obviously there. Laurel was amazing. So was Jennifer
but it was really Tina's scene. It was intense. But I wouldn't have
liked it if Tina stayed with Bette afterwards. It was good how it
ended with her at Alice's... the scene of her walking to the board....
very good.
OK I was pretty surprised by this scene - at first I too was wondering if
Bette was raping Tina and I was all woo! Hold up there that's outta order
and wondering if this was how they thought to finish the season they must
be made in the head! But then I did see the transition into 'love' or the
most desperate version of break up sex I've ever seen.
When Tina turned the tables on her and Bette let out a scream/moan/cry (at
first I thought she'd done a Mike Tyson on her and bite her ear off... LMAO
now) and then realised the gut wrenching anguish they two of them were
going through - it was pretty extreme but very well done.
That's how I read it. It *was* intense and one of the best scenes I've
ever seen between two women. I believe this one will have staying power
even long after lesbian shows are routine and all has been said and
done. It was really an amazing scene that (imho) will be referred back
to (not just among fans of this show but in general by critics, lesbians
in general, and the like) for a long time to come. And again, my hat's
off to Laurel and Jennifer both. But especially Laurel. THANK YOU.
Post by Ltcomdr
I thought the board thing was a little DQ we saw Tina stumbling over saying
that Bette had an affair but I think the board thing was a little much. But
I didn't mind it.
She couldn't bring herself to say the words. And the fact that Alice
wouldn't let her finish writing it, when we all know the history of the
board and the past interaction over it between Bette (insisting some
people practice monogamy) and Alice (insisting everyone really DOES
sleep with everyone).... a device for sure, but this one well placed for
me anyway. :)

***@large
Smith
2004-04-16 04:51:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@large.com
That's how I read it. It *was* intense and one of the best scenes I've
ever seen between two women. I believe this one will have staying power
even long after lesbian shows are routine and all has been said and
done. It was really an amazing scene that (imho) will be referred back
to (not just among fans of this show but in general by critics, lesbians
in general, and the like) for a long time to come. And again, my hat's
off to Laurel and Jennifer both. But especially Laurel. THANK YOU.
You know, I've been with you up until this point. I thought that scene was
pure junk -- total make believe stuff that just doesn't happen in the real
world. The final episode, in my opinion, was hyperbole defined. I no more
believe that two homosexuals would engage in such a scene than I would two
heterosexuals.

I find out my wife has been cheating on me. OK, confront her, get one more
in before I hit the road.

No way. It just doesn't happen that way.

I've enjoyed the show for pure entertainment value. But have I learned
anything really about lesbians? No, not anymore than I thought I did
before.

I didn't miss a minute of any of the episodes. But in the final analysis, L
stands for Ludicrous. L stands for "Lucky they got picked up for a second
season."

Then again, they never made a claim this was somehow a peak into the reality
of being a lesbian. Or did they?
l***@large
2004-04-16 17:38:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Smith
Post by l***@large.com
That's how I read it. It *was* intense and one of the best scenes I've
ever seen between two women. I believe this one will have staying power
even long after lesbian shows are routine and all has been said and
done. It was really an amazing scene that (imho) will be referred back
to (not just among fans of this show but in general by critics, lesbians
in general, and the like) for a long time to come. And again, my hat's
off to Laurel and Jennifer both. But especially Laurel. THANK YOU.
You know, I've been with you up until this point. I thought that scene was
pure junk -- total make believe stuff that just doesn't happen in the real
world. The final episode, in my opinion, was hyperbole defined. I no more
believe that two homosexuals would engage in such a scene than I would two
heterosexuals.
I find out my wife has been cheating on me. OK, confront her, get one more
in before I hit the road.
(That wasn't what it was about.)
Post by Smith
No way. It just doesn't happen that way.
I've made love after finding out my [now ex-]lover was cheating on me
for the same reasons Tina did in the show. I understood it, and I
don't think I'm alone in that, whether someone has had the experience
or not. It *is* full of love and pain. Tina felt a longing to possess
Bette out of the deep love she has for her, while at the same time
rejecting her out of the deep pain of betrayal. Tina knew that was the
end of her life as she knew it. "She was saying goodbye to her old
life, while mourning in the new one" and it made her angry that Bette
took that life -- their life -- away from her. That she could do such
a thing. And Bette knew exactly what Tina was feeling, and wanted to
convince her that wasn't it -- that she still wanted her -- HAD to
have her. Bette wa saying, "Don't leave me!"

I respect your opinion, but I have to say again, I loved that scene.
Post by Smith
I've enjoyed the show for pure entertainment value. But have I learned
anything really about lesbians? No, not anymore than I thought I did
before.
Good. Because they haven't been teaching Lesbians 101. Believe me. ;)
Post by Smith
I didn't miss a minute of any of the episodes. But in the final analysis, L
stands for Ludicrous. L stands for "Lucky they got picked up for a second
season."
I would agree with you there. I believe if it hadn't been picked up so
early after the initial ratings blowout in the 1st and 2nd ep (before
people knew if it was going to be good or not) it would not have been
renewed. But I'm happy it was. Even if only for the actor's sakes who
took a chance doing it to begin with. And I do hope it improves.
Post by Smith
Then again, they never made a claim this was somehow a peak into the reality
of being a lesbian. Or did they?
I frankly don't know *what* in the hell they were thinking. Ilene --
who purports to be a lesbian -- claims she wanted to tell "our
stories" ... but I'm hard pressed to pull "our stories" out of this
show, starting from the pilot when Bette and Tina drug home a man to
their bed. Lesbians don't drag men home to bed -- no matter the
reasons. Bisexuals? Different set of possibilities. Yet it's closer to
"our stories" than any _other_ show has gotten. At least it's trying.

And it's been fun IAC (for me anyway) to watch a show with so many
women on screen, and I've loved Alice humor, Dana's goofyness, Bette
and Tina as a couple (aside from how they've portrayed them), etc.

But I'm not surprised you're done with it. From your POV there
wouldn't be much reason to watch, I guess.

I, OTOH will. :)

***@large
Chel Pompa
2004-04-16 18:27:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@large
Post by Smith
Post by l***@large.com
That's how I read it. It *was* intense and one of the best scenes I've
ever seen between two women. I believe this one will have staying power
even long after lesbian shows are routine and all has been said and
done. It was really an amazing scene that (imho) will be referred back
to (not just among fans of this show but in general by critics, lesbians
in general, and the like) for a long time to come. And again, my hat's
off to Laurel and Jennifer both. But especially Laurel. THANK YOU.
You know, I've been with you up until this point. I thought that scene was
pure junk -- total make believe stuff that just doesn't happen in the real
world. The final episode, in my opinion, was hyperbole defined. I no more
believe that two homosexuals would engage in such a scene than I would two
heterosexuals.
I find out my wife has been cheating on me. OK, confront her, get one more
in before I hit the road.
(That wasn't what it was about.)
Post by Smith
No way. It just doesn't happen that way.
I've made love after finding out my [now ex-]lover was cheating on me
for the same reasons Tina did in the show. I understood it, and I
don't think I'm alone in that, whether someone has had the experience
or not. It *is* full of love and pain. Tina felt a longing to possess
Bette out of the deep love she has for her, while at the same time
rejecting her out of the deep pain of betrayal. Tina knew that was the
end of her life as she knew it. "She was saying goodbye to her old
life, while mourning in the new one" and it made her angry that Bette
took that life -- their life -- away from her. That she could do such
a thing. And Bette knew exactly what Tina was feeling, and wanted to
convince her that wasn't it -- that she still wanted her -- HAD to
have her. Bette wa saying, "Don't leave me!"
I respect your opinion, but I have to say again, I loved that scene.
Wow Les... that was a deep explanation - thanks! i actually loved the scene
myself. i was hard to watch but for reasons as you explained.
Post by l***@large
Post by Smith
I've enjoyed the show for pure entertainment value. But have I learned
anything really about lesbians? No, not anymore than I thought I did
before.
Good. Because they haven't been teaching Lesbians 101. Believe me. ;)
no shit!
Post by l***@large
Post by Smith
I didn't miss a minute of any of the episodes. But in the final analysis, L
stands for Ludicrous. L stands for "Lucky they got picked up for a second
season."
I would agree with you there. I believe if it hadn't been picked up so
early after the initial ratings blowout in the 1st and 2nd ep (before
people knew if it was going to be good or not) it would not have been
renewed. But I'm happy it was. Even if only for the actor's sakes who
took a chance doing it to begin with. And I do hope it improves.
Post by Smith
Then again, they never made a claim this was somehow a peak into the reality
of being a lesbian. Or did they?
I frankly don't know *what* in the hell they were thinking. Ilene --
who purports to be a lesbian -- claims she wanted to tell "our
stories" ... but I'm hard pressed to pull "our stories" out of this
show, starting from the pilot when Bette and Tina drug home a man to
their bed. Lesbians don't drag men home to bed -- no matter the
reasons. Bisexuals? Different set of possibilities. Yet it's closer to
"our stories" than any _other_ show has gotten. At least it's trying.
And it's been fun IAC (for me anyway) to watch a show with so many
women on screen, and I've loved Alice humor, Dana's goofyness, Bette
and Tina as a couple (aside from how they've portrayed them), etc.
But I'm not surprised you're done with it. From your POV there
wouldn't be much reason to watch, I guess.
I, OTOH will. :)
l***@large
2004-04-17 02:06:59 UTC
Permalink
"Chel Pompa" <***@ev1.net> kindly wrote:
[...]
Post by Chel Pompa
Wow Les... that was a deep explanation - thanks! i actually loved the scene
myself. i was hard to watch but for reasons as you explained.
That scene's gotta make everyone who isn't in the middle of breaking
up, so happy they're not going through that! ;-D
Anne
2004-04-21 22:17:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@large
I've made love after finding out my [now ex-]lover was cheating on me
for the same reasons Tina did in the show. I understood it, and I
don't think I'm alone in that, whether someone has had the experience
or not. It *is* full of love and pain. Tina felt a longing to possess
Bette out of the deep love she has for her, while at the same time
rejecting her out of the deep pain of betrayal. Tina knew that was the
end of her life as she knew it. "She was saying goodbye to her old
life, while mourning in the new one" and it made her angry that Bette
took that life -- their life -- away from her. That she could do such
a thing. And Bette knew exactly what Tina was feeling, and wanted to
convince her that wasn't it -- that she still wanted her -- HAD to
have her. Bette wa saying, "Don't leave me!"
I respect your opinion, but I have to say again, I loved that scene.
I think you are reading WAY TOO MUCH into that scene! I thought it was
awful and totally unrealistic. Just my opinion.
Anne
2004-04-21 22:18:38 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
From: "Smith" <***@tbanet.org.nospam>
Newsgroups: alt.tv.the-l-word
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 12:51 AM
Subject: Re: Season Ender


<snip>
Post by Smith
You know, I've been with you up until this point. I thought that scene was
pure junk -- total make believe stuff that just doesn't happen in the real
world. The final episode, in my opinion, was hyperbole defined. I no more
believe that two homosexuals would engage in such a scene than I would two
heterosexuals.
I find out my wife has been cheating on me. OK, confront her, get one more
in before I hit the road.
No way. It just doesn't happen that way.
I have to agree with you on this one Smith. No one I know would react in
that manner...particularly if you have any hopes of a reconciliation.
Ltcomdr
2004-04-13 20:06:35 UTC
Permalink
(***@large.com) wrote in news:***@4ax.com:

.........................cut here....................................
Post by l***@large.com
And speaking of Alice, we didn't see a whole lot of her. But she's the
one who's always there. So sweet when Mr. Piddles was gone. And thank
gawd she comes to her
senses and raps on Dana's door at 4am to lay a wet one on her. I'd
read a spoiler about this months ago, so I knew it was coming. But I
thought they did a good job of foreshadowing it by Alice paying
particular attn to Dana over the season without being too obvious
about it. <cut here>
Yeah that was nicely done and in one of the earlier episodes they made
that little pact not to sleep with each other after proclaiming that
neither were 'that' desperate. I like little touches like that. I
remember thinking at the time that it might lead to something.
Post by l***@large.com
Shane. I don't have much to say there b/c that whole affair was wacky
to begin with. <cut here>
This felt like it was just to bring the character to a point they may
have written out earlier on a cocktail napkin and never questioned why
they should complete the character arc.
Post by l***@large.com
The Jenny storyline was kind of nice after all, in this ep, if you
take out the entire middle boring part with Gene. The little trapeze
girl seems nice (and she turned out to be a pretty good actor too
imo), and I liked it that they all ended up all playing a board game
together rather than in bed. Maybe Jenny *is* growing up.
She still annoys the heck outta me though. Oh the poor little thing has
3-4 people to choose from... oh the trauma!

I thought it was cool that loads of people noticed that the manatees
were actually beluga whales! LOL fire the Continuity person (actually
they should be shot for missing that one). I the episode Gene even says
"have you ever met a manatee?" well the answer to that is still no! :)
Post by l***@large.com
But all in all accepting the foundation as they laid it out for us --
for better or worse -- I give it a B. And I *do* want to know what
happens next season and I *will* watch. So they accomplished
something, despite all our complaints. :)
I'll certainly be back for the second season (what the hell else am I
gonna watch? not that it's even been shown here yet.) if only to see if
they can improve on the stories.
l***@large.com
2004-04-14 03:54:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ltcomdr
I'll certainly be back for the second season (what the hell else am I
gonna watch? not that it's even been shown here yet.) if only to see if
they can improve on the stories.
So you're still downloading it? Wow. That's dedication!

***@large
Ltcomdr
2004-04-20 20:53:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Ltcomdr
I'll certainly be back for the second season (what the hell else am I
gonna watch? not that it's even been shown here yet.) if only to see if
they can improve on the stories.
So you're still downloading it? Wow. That's dedication!
It's a case of having to. I don't know if they even plan to show it here?

So I'm guessing I'll be downloading the 2nd Season too.
Ltcomdr
2004-04-13 20:07:06 UTC
Permalink
(***@large.com) wrote in news:***@4ax.com:

.........................cut here....................................
Post by l***@large.com
And Kit. Ok. To be nice I *think* what they're trying to say is that
Kit is looking for love when love is staring her in the face. That
Ivan is perfect except she's a woman and Kit wants a man. Well you
know what? That's a HUGE fucking "except." <cut here>
I really don't get this one. It really bugs me though cause I saw people
being asked what they thought about same sex marriages and adoption and one
of the guys said that he thought it was a terrible thing (no news there)
but that his reason for this (because he's enlightened) was that it would
make they youth think it was OK or Cool or something to be gay and that
more people would 'choose' this 'lifestyle'. It's my understanding that you
don't 'choose'. And the Kit/Ivan thing is just cementing that guy's view.

(apologies for the little rant)
l***@large.com
2004-04-14 04:12:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ltcomdr
.........................cut here....................................
Post by l***@large.com
And Kit. Ok. To be nice I *think* what they're trying to say is that
Kit is looking for love when love is staring her in the face. That
Ivan is perfect except she's a woman and Kit wants a man. Well you
know what? That's a HUGE fucking "except." <cut here>
I really don't get this one. It really bugs me though cause I saw people
being asked what they thought about same sex marriages and adoption and one
of the guys said that he thought it was a terrible thing (no news there)
but that his reason for this (because he's enlightened) was that it would
make they youth think it was OK or Cool or something to be gay and that
more people would 'choose' this 'lifestyle'. It's my understanding that you
don't 'choose'. And the Kit/Ivan thing is just cementing that guy's view.
Well Kit hasn't chosen anything yet. I think she just enjoys Ivan's
company and the attention and wasn't thinking much beyond that until
Bette brought it up. Then she _did_ tell Ivan flat out she's str8 and
has nothing to offer her. Ivan is the one protesting.

To play devil's advocate, there are also those str8 women who have one
exception in their lives. They meet someone who's gay that sweeps them
off their feet and they decide to go along for the ride for a 6 mo
affair or whatever, then they revert back to men. (Like Peggy Peabody
said, "I was a lesbian in 1974.") [and no, she wasn't a *lesbian* or
she'd still be one, but you get the point.]

Then there are women who are 100% str8 and might like the hell out of
another woman but would puke at the idea of anything sexual.

So we'll see where Kit lies.

Seems TPTB want people to think of sexual issues in shades other than
black or white. Like there's an exception to every rule. But black and
white exists too and Kit has been pretty clear about who she is. I hope
they keep her str8 myself.

But as for whether being gay is a choice or not, I always say we should
be free to choose to live our lives any way we want. So what if it IS a
choice? Whenever I hear people argue that it is not a choice, it's like
they are arguing it is a disease we are afflicted with that we can't
help. Why does it have to be genetic to be "acceptable"? (I'm not
arguing to you but to this issue in general.) I choose to ride a
motorcycle and I don't want anyone taking that socially unpopular choice
away from me either. :) Either we live in freedom or we don't. Either we
have equal rights or we don't. Whether we choose to be gay or it is
genetic s/b irrelevant to our right to love who we love, regardless of
the reason behind it. </off soapbox>

IAC I wouldn't worry about "cementing" some asshole's POV about
anything.

***@large
Ltcomdr
2004-04-20 20:57:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Ltcomdr
.........................cut here....................................
Post by l***@large.com
And Kit. Ok. To be nice I *think* what they're trying to say is that
Kit is looking for love when love is staring her in the face. That
Ivan is perfect except she's a woman and Kit wants a man. Well you
know what? That's a HUGE fucking "except." <cut here>
I really don't get this one. It really bugs me though cause I saw
people being asked what they thought about same sex marriages and
adoption and one of the guys said that he thought it was a terrible
thing (no news there) but that his reason for this (because he's
enlightened) was that it would make they youth think it was OK or Cool
or something to be gay and that more people would 'choose' this
'lifestyle'. It's my understanding that you don't 'choose'. And the
Kit/Ivan thing is just cementing that guy's view.
Well Kit hasn't chosen anything yet. I think she just enjoys Ivan's
company and the attention and wasn't thinking much beyond that until
Bette brought it up. Then she _did_ tell Ivan flat out she's str8 and
has nothing to offer her. Ivan is the one protesting.
True.
Post by l***@large.com
To play devil's advocate, there are also those str8 women who have one
exception in their lives. They meet someone who's gay that sweeps them
off their feet and they decide to go along for the ride for a 6 mo
affair or whatever, then they revert back to men. (Like Peggy Peabody
said, "I was a lesbian in 1974.") [and no, she wasn't a *lesbian* or
she'd still be one, but you get the point.]
OK I see where you're going...
Post by l***@large.com
Then there are women who are 100% str8 and might like the hell out of
another woman but would puke at the idea of anything sexual.
True.
Post by l***@large.com
So we'll see where Kit lies.
Seems TPTB want people to think of sexual issues in shades other than
black or white. Like there's an exception to every rule. But black and
white exists too and Kit has been pretty clear about who she is. I
hope they keep her str8 myself.
I can't disagree with any of that (not that I wanted to).
Ltcomdr
2004-04-20 21:06:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Ltcomdr
.........................cut here....................................
Post by l***@large.com
And Kit. Ok. To be nice I *think* what they're trying to say is that
Kit is looking for love when love is staring her in the face. That
Ivan is perfect except she's a woman and Kit wants a man. Well you
know what? That's a HUGE fucking "except." <cut here>
I really don't get this one. It really bugs me though cause I saw
people being asked what they thought about same sex marriages and
adoption and one of the guys said that he thought it was a terrible
thing (no news there) but that his reason for this (because he's
enlightened) was that it would make they youth think it was OK or Cool
or something to be gay and that more people would 'choose' this
'lifestyle'. It's my understanding that you don't 'choose'. And the
Kit/Ivan thing is just cementing that guy's view.
<cut here>
But as for whether being gay is a choice or not, I always say we
should be free to choose to live our lives any way we want. So what if
it IS a choice? Whenever I hear people argue that it is not a choice,
it's like they are arguing it is a disease we are afflicted with that
we can't help. Why does it have to be genetic to be "acceptable"? (I'm
not arguing to you but to this issue in general.) I choose to ride a
motorcycle and I don't want anyone taking that socially unpopular
choice away from me either. :) Either we live in freedom or we don't.
Either we have equal rights or we don't. Whether we choose to be gay
or it is genetic s/b irrelevant to our right to love who we love,
regardless of the reason behind it. </off soapbox>
IAC I wouldn't worry about "cementing" some asshole's POV about
anything.
Damn it - I just hate when someone replies with an even handed comment.

Just for the record I wasn't stating that the non choice thing was about
it being genetic more a we love who we love regardless of gender,
colour, religion etc. and only from that point of view is it an
affliction that we can't help.
l***@large
2004-04-21 18:38:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ltcomdr
Damn it - I just hate when someone replies with an even handed comment.
:-)
Post by Ltcomdr
Just for the record I wasn't stating that the non choice thing was about
it being genetic more a we love who we love regardless of gender,
colour, religion etc. and only from that point of view is it an
affliction that we can't help.
Okay, I getcha. Like how str8 people are afflicted by falling in love
with other str8 people and who cares why and what diff does it make.

:)
Ltcomdr
2004-04-21 19:09:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@large
Post by Ltcomdr
Damn it - I just hate when someone replies with an even handed comment.
:-)
Post by Ltcomdr
Just for the record I wasn't stating that the non choice thing was
about it being genetic more a we love who we love regardless of
gender, colour, religion etc. and only from that point of view is it
an affliction that we can't help.
Okay, I getcha. Like how str8 people are afflicted by falling in love
with other str8 people and who cares why and what diff does it make.
:)
exact-a-mundo!
AJ
2004-04-14 02:06:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@large.com
So, taking into consideration what we've already been asked to
accept --
Post by l***@large.com
whether it's made sense or not -- (i.e. that Bette and CC have a thing;
that Kit is confused about a drag king; that Dana's lost her mind with
Tanya; that Shane loves a woman for no earthly reasons we've been shown;
and that Jenny somehow has become the sane one) -- accepting all that
unbelievable stuff as the starting point, the ep basically worked. It
left everyone with a choice (as Wolf put it), and things did build to a
colossal head in that sense. Or close to one. (Shane's "climax" was weak
imo but thrown in the mix it didn't matter much.)
I thought the ep was good, perhaps even very good, but then I had just
watched the horrendously awful "Shelter Island" so anything would have
looked good by comparison.
Post by l***@large.com
Being positive, I thought the scenes between Bette and CC were good as
far as the "written" passion goes, (i.e. the scenes were written fine
but imo they don't have chemistry and I don't like the storyline, so...)
Still we finally saw women being intimate vs M/F sex. But the scene of
them making it up against Bette's office door was just ... not even a
smidge believable. Anyone would have come knocking to see what the
banging was about. And CC didn't even have her hammer with her. <g>
The sex scene with Jenny and Robin was well done and I'm grateful that
we were not treated to another M/F humping. What was all that about
with Tim tiptoeing away from intruding on Jen and Robin and then
having a freak-out when he thinks she was sleeping with Gene? Did
they at some point make a pact that he'd butt-out while Jen slept with
women but if she was going to go back to men then he got the head of
the line?
Post by l***@large.com
I *did* like how they all converged inside the Jesus gallery... and
Bette walking around holding Tina's hand. (Those two are *h-o-t*
together.) And I also liked how Tina saw Bette and CC at a distance, and
just the little gestures and intimacy she witnessed said it all. Ilene
didn't hit us over the head with it and we all got it. Well done.
Carrying through I also liked how Bette sees Tina sitting, staring at
her in the dressing mirror, and knows something is wrong
immediately.
Post by l***@large.com
(But I did wonder about the ride home. Guess Tina would have waited to
get home. In shock and not wanting to talk in the car where you can't
really confront and look at each other.) But as far as Tina's slap I was
hoping for a bigger wallop. <g>
The sex scene afterwards was an emotional roller coaster...
wondering at
Post by l***@large.com
first if Bette was raping Tina... watching the hurt explode into the
love that's obviously there. Laurel was amazing. So was Jennifer but it
was really Tina's scene. It was intense. But I wouldn't have liked it if
Tina stayed with Bette afterwards. It was good how it ended with her at
Alice's... the scene of her walking to the board.... very good.
I was uncomfortable about how violent the scene between Tina and Bette
became. You don't prove your love for someone by throwing them down
on the bed against their will and I do think that Tina bit Bette once
she got on top. I just saw the whole thing as a fight scene and so
was glad that Tina had removed herself from the house ... good thing
Alice is such a rock.
Post by l***@large.com
And speaking of Alice, we didn't see a whole lot of her. But she's the
one who's always there. So sweet when Mr. Piddles was gone. (Did you
catch Tanya standing behind rolling her eyes at all the fuss over a dead
cat? Referring to Mr. P as "it"?) And thank gawd she comes to her senses
and raps on Dana's door at 4am to lay a wet one on her. I'd read a
spoiler about this months ago, so I knew it was coming. But I
thought
Post by l***@large.com
they did a good job of foreshadowing it by Alice paying particular attn
to Dana over the season without being too obvious about it. I'm not sure
I can see Alice and D. together... they're both kind of goofy... maybe.
But I liked how Alice pulled back and Dana kissed *Alice* then. Rather
than leaving it all on Alice and not letting us know what Dana's
reaction was. It is definitely something to look forward to next season.
I really expected Alice to have an autopsey run on Mr. P to prove to
Dana that Tanya killed her pet ... was really disappointed when that
didn't happen. But really taken by surprise (happily) when Alice
showed up at Dana's to clue her into the real reason she shouldn't
marry Tanya. <g>
Post by l***@large.com
Shane. I don't have much to say there b/c that whole affair was wacky to
begin with. Shane is the maverick... never settles down... I know she
expressed an interest in finding someone on Seaman (the ship party), but
I don't see her being so stupid as to pick a married woman with kids who
has a shitload of money and is used to a certain lifestyle. Shane is not
that stupid. Plus I never saw any chemistry between them and nothing to
lead me to believe they were anything more than a casual fling to each
other. Would like to hear what others think.
That's the problem with TPTB not filling in the blanks with characters
like Shane. We can't know what Sherrie meant to Shane 'cause we
didn't see much of them. Maybe a street kid like Shane got off to
having a woman like Sherrie pay attention to her. At the very least
Shane passed up a roll in the hay with the daughter ... something we
had been led to believe that Shane never did .. pass up a chance at
sex, that is.
Post by l***@large.com
The Jenny storyline was kind of nice after all, in this ep, if you take
out the entire middle boring part with Gene. The little trapeze girl
seems nice (and she turned out to be a pretty good actor too imo), and I
liked it that they all ended up all playing a board game together rather
than in bed. Maybe Jenny *is* growing up.
I like Robin and Jenny together .. except that the dress Jenny was
wearing might be grounds for breaking up .... I think they could have
a chance. Robin seems to be someone who (like Gene) can over-look
Jen's wierdness.
Post by l***@large.com
Seems Marina will be back since she thinks she's in love, unless we come
back 'after the fact' next season to find J. broke her heart, she sold
the Planet and moved somewhere.
No ... no ... no . Marina stays :)
Post by l***@large.com
And Kit. Ok. To be nice I *think* what they're trying to say is that Kit
is looking for love when love is staring her in the face. That Ivan is
perfect except she's a woman and Kit wants a man. Well you know what?
That's a HUGE fucking "except." I wouldn't be with a guy who thought he
could give me what I wanted, and I don't know why Kit should try to be
with a woman. And what was with going to the exhibit in drag? And
performing that number in the parking lot? Was that supposed to be
funny? Campy? Serious? Cute? And are we really supposed to think that no
one realizes Ivan is a woman when in drag? Or not? And couldn't they
have picked someone more physically compatible with Kit? Or was that the
point? That love doesn't always look like what it's 'supposed' to? Well,
that's fine, but 'they don't got love.' Kit said she wanted a man. Ivan
didn't hear that. Maybe Ivan figures Kit just needs a little
encouragement, but I never saw any tendencies in Kit in this series. In
fact when Shane said, "Liquor in the front poker in the rear" (play on
words from old ep), Kit said, "No thanks." And another point of
confusion for me... Kit keeps saying she wants a man, and she knows Ivan
is a woman, and insists she isn't leading Ivan on... yet she treats Ivan
like a male date, taking her arm, calling her "he." If Kit wanted to
discourage Ivan's romantic interest in her, wouldn't she at least refer
to Ivan as SHE and not take her arm as if she were her male date?
I think Ivan went to the show in drag to make Kit more comfortable ...
and meanwhile I can hardly believe that drag would fool anyone; gay,
straight or mentally challanged. And Kelly Lynch is really hidding
her light under a bushel basket in this role.
Post by l***@large.com
Oh well. Whatever. I did think the look Ivan gave Tanya at Mr.
Piddles'
Post by l***@large.com
funeral was funny (after Tanya finally shook her hand and Ivan was
moving on). And Ivan has a certain charm that does grow on you, but her
gelled back hair reminds me of a mullet and her drag thing is too weird
in that I don't know how she expects anyone to take that
seriously -- or
Post by l***@large.com
maybe she doesn't.
But all in all accepting the foundation as they laid it out for us --
for better or worse -- I give it a B. And I *do* want to know what
happens next season and I *will* watch. So they accomplished
something,
Post by l***@large.com
despite all our complaints. :)
I'll be front row center too.
AJ
l***@large.com
2004-04-14 03:39:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by AJ
The sex scene with Jenny and Robin was well done and I'm grateful that
we were not treated to another M/F humping.
I agree about the sex b/t Jenny and Robin, but where were you when Gene
and Jenny were treating the seals to their own mating ritual? Or do you
not consider Gene to be male? <g> (It was so boring you probably dozed
off in that part.)
Post by AJ
What was all that about
with Tim tiptoeing away from intruding on Jen and Robin and then
having a freak-out when he thinks she was sleeping with Gene? Did
they at some point make a pact that he'd butt-out while Jen slept with
women but if she was going to go back to men then he got the head of
the line?
I totally understand that. If Jenn loves women there is nothing Tim can
do about that but step aside. But as far as men went, he was the one.
She was engaged. So to now be screwing other MEN in his house too...
that's unacceptable to him. I'd be the same way. And it was thoughtless
of Jenny to bring a man there. It *is* Tim's house.
Post by AJ
I was uncomfortable about how violent the scene between Tina and Bette
became. You don't prove your love for someone by throwing them down
on the bed against their will and I do think that Tina bit Bette once
she got on top.
People disagree about this. It was Bette's cry of anguish that made
people wonder. I think Tina was kissing Bette, but maybe a bite/kiss.
But I don't think she was taking a chunk out of Bette's jaw or
"literally biting her." Bette was in anguish over what she'd done and
that was right when Tina started taking control. Bette was relinquishing
control to Tina's overwhelming pain AND love, and it made her cry out.
That was my read.
Post by AJ
I just saw the whole thing as a fight scene
But a fight scene because there is so much love between them, and that
love is still there. If it wasn't, neither Bette nor Tina would have
cared that Bette had an affair at all. Anger is the flip side of love.
So as angry as they were -- that's how deeply they love each other. I
liked this scene very much and thought it was very good.
Post by AJ
and so was glad that Tina had removed herself from the house ...
I was glad too b/c Bette needs to think about what she did and Tina
cannot forgive her so easily.
Post by AJ
I really expected Alice to have an autopsey run on Mr. P to prove to
Dana that Tanya killed her pet ... was really disappointed when that
didn't happen.
I was surprised too that they didn't make it clear HOW Mr. Piddles was
killed. But with all the meds he needed it seemed obvious we were
supposed to think she either OD's him or didn't give him any at all.
Likely the latter.

[snip to Shane]
Post by AJ
That's the problem with TPTB not filling in the blanks with characters
like Shane. We can't know what Sherrie meant to Shane 'cause we
didn't see much of them. Maybe a street kid like Shane got off to
having a woman like Sherrie pay attention to her. At the very least
Shane passed up a roll in the hay with the daughter ... something we
had been led to believe that Shane never did .. pass up a chance at
sex, that is.
Good point!
Post by AJ
I like Robin and Jenny together .. except that the dress Jenny was
wearing might be grounds for breaking up ....
LOL! I said the same thing to Wolf. It looked like a potato sack.
Post by AJ
I think they could have
a chance. Robin seems to be someone who (like Gene) can over-look
Jen's wierdness.
She's a trapeze artist for krissakes. And he talks to seals. I think
Jenn is pretty well camoflauged in their eyes. <g>

[snip to Ivan]
Post by AJ
I think Ivan went to the show in drag to make Kit more comfortable ...
And it hit me tonight when we rewatched that the show was "Provocations"
so showing up in drag kind of goes along with the theme.
Post by AJ
and meanwhile I can hardly believe that drag would fool anyone; gay,
straight or mentally challanged. And Kelly Lynch is really hidding
her light under a bushel basket in this role.
That's Kelly Lynch? I know the name but not the face. What's she been
in? (I could go look in imdb but I'd rather ask you.) <g>
Post by AJ
I give it a B. And I *do* want to know what happens next season
and I *will* watch. So they accomplished something,
despite all our complaints. :)
I'll be front row center too.
Oh goody. You bring the popcorn, Wolf and I will bring the Milk Duds,
Sweet Tarts, Hot Tamales and Red Whips. Tulgey can bring the libations.
If she plans on returning!

***@large (having to watch the Drag Wolf sing "I'm Your Man")
Tulgey Wood
2004-04-15 00:52:18 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by l***@large.com
Post by AJ
I was uncomfortable about how violent the scene between Tina and Bette
became. You don't prove your love for someone by throwing them down
on the bed against their will and I do think that Tina bit Bette once
she got on top.
People disagree about this. It was Bette's cry of anguish that made
people wonder. I think Tina was kissing Bette, but maybe a bite/kiss.
But I don't think she was taking a chunk out of Bette's jaw or
"literally biting her." Bette was in anguish over what she'd done and
that was right when Tina started taking control. Bette was relinquishing
control to Tina's overwhelming pain AND love, and it made her cry out.
That was my read.
Yeah, that's how I saw it, too. I didn't get the idea Tina had actually
bitten Bette until I read posts here after the ep aired. Mind you, in
the S2 opener, if Bette's walking about with teeth marks or a bandage
hanging off the side of her face I'll know I was wrong. :-D
Post by l***@large.com
Post by AJ
I just saw the whole thing as a fight scene
But a fight scene because there is so much love between them, and that
love is still there. If it wasn't, neither Bette nor Tina would have
cared that Bette had an affair at all. Anger is the flip side of love.
So as angry as they were -- that's how deeply they love each other. I
liked this scene very much and thought it was very good.
Agreed. But AJ's right, too. Bottom line, it was a fight scene. Rage
was the scene's impetus. Tina's rage towards Bette was in direct
proportion to her love for her. Excellent scene--absolutely riveting.
Well written and beautifully played.
Post by l***@large.com
Post by AJ
I really expected Alice to have an autopsey run on Mr. P to prove to
Dana that Tanya killed her pet ... was really disappointed when that
didn't happen.
I was surprised too that they didn't make it clear HOW Mr. Piddles was
killed. But with all the meds he needed it seemed obvious we were
supposed to think she either OD's him or didn't give him any at all.
Likely the latter.
Likely. I do hope we get to see Tanya's butt being kicked into next
week. Maybe Alice will do it. (Yeahyeah!)

[snip]
Post by l***@large.com
Post by AJ
I like Robin and Jenny together .. except that the dress Jenny was
wearing might be grounds for breaking up ....
LOL! I said the same thing to Wolf. It looked like a potato sack.
Oh, dear. How could I have missed a potato sack?! :-P
Post by l***@large.com
Post by AJ
I think they could have
a chance. Robin seems to be someone who (like Gene) can over-look
Jen's wierdness.
She's a trapeze artist for krissakes. And he talks to seals. I think
Jenn is pretty well camoflauged in their eyes. <g>
LOL!! Wait a minute! Trapeze is rather unusual, but...what's wrong
with talking to seals? ;-P

[snip]
Post by l***@large.com
Post by AJ
I give it a B. And I *do* want to know what happens next season
and I *will* watch. So they accomplished something,
despite all our complaints. :)
I'll be front row center too.
Oh goody. You bring the popcorn, Wolf and I will bring the Milk Duds,
Sweet Tarts, Hot Tamales and Red Whips. Tulgey can bring the libations.
Wait one damn minute. Why does everyone else get off bringing snacks,
but I draw the keg? =O
Post by l***@large.com
If she plans on returning!
Of course I do, ya great nancy!
Is it creepy, or can she lip sync? ;-)
l***@large
2004-04-15 05:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by AJ
I just saw the whole thing as a fight scene
But a fight scene because there is so much love between them, [...]
Agreed. But AJ's right, too. Bottom line, it was a fight scene. Rage
was the scene's impetus.[..]
Right... but again, but there was rage b/c there was so much love. So
I don't think it's fair to characterize it as "a fight scene" without
qualifying it by acknowledging the love -- otherwise what
distinguishes it from, say, Tina walloping CC upside the head? Or Tim
smacking Marina? Or Marina smacking Tim? Thems is real fightin' cuz
there ain't no love lost.
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by AJ
I like Robin and Jenny together .. except that the dress Jenny was
wearing might be grounds for breaking up ....
LOL! I said the same thing to Wolf. It looked like a potato sack.
Oh, dear. How could I have missed a potato sack?! :-P
Maybe cos it had a big square pocket to disguise it. (Probably to put
'taters in.)
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by AJ
I think they could have
a chance. Robin seems to be someone who (like Gene) can over-look
Jen's wierdness.
She's a trapeze artist for krissakes. And he talks to seals. I think
Jenn is pretty well camoflauged in their eyes. <g>
LOL!! Wait a minute! Trapeze is rather unusual, but...what's wrong
with talking to seals? ;-P
Nothing. It just made a good punchline. :-D
Post by Tulgey Wood
[snip]
Post by AJ
I give it a B. And I *do* want to know what happens next season
and I *will* watch. So they accomplished something,
despite all our complaints. :)
I'll be front row center too.
Oh goody. You bring the popcorn, Wolf and I will bring the Milk Duds,
Sweet Tarts, Hot Tamales and Red Whips. Tulgey can bring the libations.
Wait one damn minute. Why does everyone else get off bringing snacks,
but I draw the keg? =O
Oh all right ya big lush, er I mean nancy...(just can't part with the
kegs in yer kitchen, aye?)... you bring the 50 pounds of candy and
Wolf 'n' I'll bring something to wash it down.


Milk.

<lol>
Post by Tulgey Wood
If she plans on returning!
Of course I do, ya great nancy!
Oh goody!
Post by Tulgey Wood
Is it creepy, or can she lip sync? ;-)
ROTF!! It was acapella and she has a good voice, but it was still
creepy. :-D She can't be my man. 'That would make us faggots.' <BFG>

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

***@large
Tulgey Wood
2004-04-18 04:35:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by AJ
I just saw the whole thing as a fight scene
But a fight scene because there is so much love between them, [...]
Agreed. But AJ's right, too. Bottom line, it was a fight scene. Rage
was the scene's impetus.[..]
Right... but again, but there was rage b/c there was so much love. So
I don't think it's fair to characterize it as "a fight scene" without
qualifying it by acknowledging the love -- otherwise what
distinguishes it from, say, Tina walloping CC upside the head? Or Tim
smacking Marina? Or Marina smacking Tim? Thems is real fightin' cuz
there ain't no love lost.
Agreed. (What was it Al Swearengen said about people repeating what he
said back to him in different words?) ;-P
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by AJ
I like Robin and Jenny together .. except that the dress Jenny was
wearing might be grounds for breaking up ....
LOL! I said the same thing to Wolf. It looked like a potato sack.
Oh, dear. How could I have missed a potato sack?! :-P
Maybe cos it had a big square pocket to disguise it. (Probably to put
'taters in.)
Taters? Workin' on the visual.... Fuuuuuuuk!

[snip]
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by AJ
I give it a B. And I *do* want to know what happens next season
and I *will* watch. So they accomplished something, despite all
our complaints. :)
I'll be front row center too.
Oh goody. You bring the popcorn, Wolf and I will bring the Milk Duds,
Sweet Tarts, Hot Tamales and Red Whips. Tulgey can bring the libations.
Wait one damn minute. Why does everyone else get off bringing snacks,
but I draw the keg? =O
Oh all right ya big lush, er I mean nancy...(just can't part with the
kegs in yer kitchen, aye?)... you bring the 50 pounds of candy and
Wolf 'n' I'll bring something to wash it down.
Milk.
<lol>
Milk?! *I'll* bring the beer, alright. (Was child psychology just
practised on me, 'cause I'm feeling a bit pouty.)

[snip]
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Is it creepy, or can she lip sync? ;-)
ROTF!! It was acapella and she has a good voice, but it was still
creepy. :-D She can't be my man. 'That would make us faggots.' <BFG>
LOL!!
Post by l***@large
Not that there's anything wrong with that...
Of course not...what you two get up to in your spare time is not my
business. ;-D
l***@large.com
2004-04-18 21:39:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by AJ
I just saw the whole thing as a fight scene
But a fight scene because there is so much love between them, [...]
Agreed. But AJ's right, too. Bottom line, it was a fight scene. Rage
was the scene's impetus.[..]
Right... but again, but there was rage b/c there was so much love. So
I don't think it's fair to characterize it as "a fight scene" without
qualifying it by acknowledging the love -- otherwise what
distinguishes it from, say, Tina walloping CC upside the head? Or Tim
smacking Marina? Or Marina smacking Tim? Thems is real fightin' cuz
there ain't no love lost.
Agreed. (What was it Al Swearengen said about people repeating what he
said back to him in different words?) ;-P
Touche! I loved that scene... especially the last bit where E.B. did it
one more time and Al just sat there, closing his eyes, seething.
Post by Tulgey Wood
[snip]
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Is it creepy, or can she lip sync? ;-)
ROTF!! It was acapella and she has a good voice, but it was still
creepy. :-D She can't be my man. 'That would make us faggots.' <BFG>
LOL!!
Post by l***@large
Not that there's anything wrong with that...
Of course not...what you two get up to in your spare time is not my
business. ;-D
Oh god! Now I'm gonna get it! (But at least she'll probably stop singing
that damn song! She does it just to creep me out!)

***@large
AJ
2004-04-16 04:13:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@large.com
Post by AJ
The sex scene with Jenny and Robin was well done and I'm grateful that
we were not treated to another M/F humping.
I agree about the sex b/t Jenny and Robin, but where were you when Gene
and Jenny were treating the seals to their own mating ritual? Or do you
not consider Gene to be male? <g> (It was so boring you probably dozed
off in that part.)
I meant the bare-ass-in-the-air M/F humping. Not too sure about Gene
either ... that center part thing is kinda iffy <g>.
Post by l***@large.com
Post by AJ
What was all that about
with Tim tiptoeing away from intruding on Jen and Robin and then
having a freak-out when he thinks she was sleeping with Gene? Did
they at some point make a pact that he'd butt-out while Jen slept with
women but if she was going to go back to men then he got the head of
the line?
I totally understand that. If Jenn loves women there is nothing Tim can
do about that but step aside. But as far as men went, he was the one.
She was engaged. So to now be screwing other MEN in his house too...
that's unacceptable to him. I'd be the same way. And it was
thoughtless
Post by l***@large.com
of Jenny to bring a man there. It *is* Tim's house.
Tim thought it was OK for him to bring his new woman to the house ...
a portion of which he rents to Jen which to me would mean that she can
use the rented space as she see's fit ... not as Tim sees fit.
Post by l***@large.com
Post by AJ
I was uncomfortable about how violent the scene between Tina and Bette
became. You don't prove your love for someone by throwing them down
on the bed against their will and I do think that Tina bit Bette once
she got on top.
People disagree about this. It was Bette's cry of anguish that made
people wonder. I think Tina was kissing Bette, but maybe a
bite/kiss.
Post by l***@large.com
But I don't think she was taking a chunk out of Bette's jaw or
"literally biting her." Bette was in anguish over what she'd done and
that was right when Tina started taking control. Bette was
relinquishing
Post by l***@large.com
control to Tina's overwhelming pain AND love, and it made her cry out.
That was my read.
Post by AJ
I just saw the whole thing as a fight scene
But a fight scene because there is so much love between them, and that
love is still there. If it wasn't, neither Bette nor Tina would have
cared that Bette had an affair at all. Anger is the flip side of love.
So as angry as they were -- that's how deeply they love each other. I
liked this scene very much and thought it was very good.
I don't like the physically violent side of this "love" ... for me
there is no going back after coming to blows and probably shouldn't
because if they went there once it will sure as hell happen again.
Post by l***@large.com
Post by AJ
and so was glad that Tina had removed herself from the house ...
I was glad too b/c Bette needs to think about what she did and Tina
cannot forgive her so easily.
Post by AJ
I really expected Alice to have an autopsey run on Mr. P to prove to
Dana that Tanya killed her pet ... was really disappointed when that
didn't happen.
I was surprised too that they didn't make it clear HOW Mr. Piddles was
killed. But with all the meds he needed it seemed obvious we were
supposed to think she either OD's him or didn't give him any at all.
Likely the latter.
[snip to Shane]
Post by AJ
That's the problem with TPTB not filling in the blanks with
characters
Post by l***@large.com
Post by AJ
like Shane. We can't know what Sherrie meant to Shane 'cause we
didn't see much of them. Maybe a street kid like Shane got off to
having a woman like Sherrie pay attention to her. At the very least
Shane passed up a roll in the hay with the daughter ... something we
had been led to believe that Shane never did .. pass up a chance at
sex, that is.
Good point!
Post by AJ
I like Robin and Jenny together .. except that the dress Jenny was
wearing might be grounds for breaking up ....
LOL! I said the same thing to Wolf. It looked like a potato sack.
Post by AJ
I think they could have
a chance. Robin seems to be someone who (like Gene) can over-look
Jen's wierdness.
She's a trapeze artist for krissakes. And he talks to seals. I think
Jenn is pretty well camoflauged in their eyes. <g>
Must have been the brown potatoe sack disguise.<g>
Post by l***@large.com
[snip to Ivan]
Post by AJ
I think Ivan went to the show in drag to make Kit more comfortable ...
And it hit me tonight when we rewatched that the show was
"Provocations"
Post by l***@large.com
so showing up in drag kind of goes along with the theme.
Post by AJ
and meanwhile I can hardly believe that drag would fool anyone; gay,
straight or mentally challanged. And Kelly Lynch is really
hidding
Post by l***@large.com
Post by AJ
her light under a bushel basket in this role.
That's Kelly Lynch? I know the name but not the face. What's she been
in? (I could go look in imdb but I'd rather ask you.) <g>
She hasn't been a major, leading lady star but she has a solid back
ground in film and television and is really nice looking, femmy blond.
I think she was in the Charlie's Angels remake.
Post by l***@large.com
Post by AJ
I give it a B. And I *do* want to know what happens next season
and I *will* watch. So they accomplished something,
despite all our complaints. :)
I'll be front row center too.
Oh goody. You bring the popcorn, Wolf and I will bring the Milk Duds,
Sweet Tarts, Hot Tamales and Red Whips. Tulgey can bring the
libations.
Post by l***@large.com
If she plans on returning!
Don't forget the Junior Mints.
AJ
l***@large
2004-04-16 18:00:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by AJ
Post by AJ
The sex scene with Jenny and Robin was well done and I'm grateful
that we were not treated to another M/F humping.
I agree about the sex b/t Jenny and Robin, but where were you when
Gene and Jenny were treating the seals to their own mating ritual?
Or do you not consider Gene to be male? <g>
I meant the bare-ass-in-the-air M/F humping. Not too sure about Gene
either ... that center part thing is kinda iffy <g>.
LOL!!
Post by AJ
Post by AJ
What was all that about
with Tim tiptoeing away from intruding on Jen and Robin and then
having a freak-out when he thinks she was sleeping with Gene? Did
they at some point make a pact that he'd butt-out while Jen slept
with women but if she was going to go back to men then he got the
head of the line?
I totally understand that. If Jenn loves women there is nothing Tim
can do about that but step aside. But as far as men went, he was the
one. She was engaged. So to now be screwing other MEN in his house
too... that's unacceptable to him. I'd be the same way. And it was
thoughtless of Jenny to bring a man there. It *is* Tim's house.
Tim thought it was OK for him to bring his new woman to the house ...
But Jenn knew Tim was str8 all along AND *more importantly* Tim did
not break up with Jenn. Trish is only there b/c Jenn didn't want Tim
for herself. The reverse isn't true.
Post by AJ
a portion of which he rents to Jen which to me would mean that she can
use the rented space as she see's fit ... not as Tim sees fit.
They aren't landlord and tenant. They have a history. If you're going
to be a considerate human being -- especially to someone you've loved,
you're going to do a little thinking before you act.

Unless the writers don't want ya to cuz it makes better drama if'n ya
don't. :)

[snipped all the stuff about Tina and Bette's scene just cause the
format was screwed up, but here's your reply:]
Post by AJ
I don't like the physically violent side of this "love" ... for me
there is no going back after coming to blows and probably shouldn't
because if they went there once it will sure as hell happen again.
So, you end up with a stung cheek but you have a love that moves you
to your soul. <g> Abuse is bad. Unhealthy. Passion is good. Hot. And
sometimes it stings. Each person has to draw that line for themselves.

But I wouldn't call what they did coming to blows. If Tina slapped
Bette because Bette forgot something at the grovery store, that would
be coming to blows. If Bette ripped off Tina's clothes b/c she was
drunk and felt like having sex and Tina didn't, even if Tina stopped
Bette, that would be coming to blows. In this scene what I personally
saw was two people who have a deep passion for each other, driven to
their limits. Past their limits. And acting out of character -- and
out of the normal interplay of their relationship -- in reaction to
deep loss. But I understand you see it much more pragmatically.

[...]
Post by AJ
Post by AJ
I like Robin and Jenny together .. except that the dress Jenny was
wearing might be grounds for breaking up ....
LOL! I said the same thing to Wolf. It looked like a potato sack.
Post by AJ
I think they could have a chance. Robin seems to be someone
who (like Gene) can over-look Jen's wierdness.
She's a trapeze artist for krissakes. And he talks to seals. I think
Jenn is pretty well camoflauged in their eyes. <g>
Must have been the brown potatoe sack disguise.<g>
With the caveman strap diagonal across one shoulder.

[...]
Post by AJ
Post by AJ
I give it a B. And I *do* want to know what happens next season
and I *will* watch. So they accomplished something,
despite all our complaints. :)
I'll be front row center too.
Oh goody. You bring the popcorn, Wolf and I will bring the Milk
Duds, Sweet Tarts, Hot Tamales and Red Whips. [...]
Don't forget the Junior Mints.
Tell Tulgey -- she got reassigned to candy. :)

***@large
Chel Pompa
2004-04-16 18:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@large
Post by AJ
Post by AJ
The sex scene with Jenny and Robin was well done and I'm grateful
that we were not treated to another M/F humping.
I agree about the sex b/t Jenny and Robin, but where were you when
Gene and Jenny were treating the seals to their own mating ritual?
Or do you not consider Gene to be male? <g>
I meant the bare-ass-in-the-air M/F humping. Not too sure about Gene
either ... that center part thing is kinda iffy <g>.
LOL!!
Post by AJ
Post by AJ
What was all that about
with Tim tiptoeing away from intruding on Jen and Robin and then
having a freak-out when he thinks she was sleeping with Gene? Did
they at some point make a pact that he'd butt-out while Jen slept
with women but if she was going to go back to men then he got the
head of the line?
I totally understand that. If Jenn loves women there is nothing Tim
can do about that but step aside. But as far as men went, he was the
one. She was engaged. So to now be screwing other MEN in his house
too... that's unacceptable to him. I'd be the same way. And it was
thoughtless of Jenny to bring a man there. It *is* Tim's house.
Tim thought it was OK for him to bring his new woman to the house ...
But Jenn knew Tim was str8 all along AND *more importantly* Tim did
not break up with Jenn. Trish is only there b/c Jenn didn't want Tim
for herself. The reverse isn't true.
Post by AJ
a portion of which he rents to Jen which to me would mean that she can
use the rented space as she see's fit ... not as Tim sees fit.
They aren't landlord and tenant. They have a history. If you're going
to be a considerate human being -- especially to someone you've loved,
you're going to do a little thinking before you act.
Unless the writers don't want ya to cuz it makes better drama if'n ya
don't. :)
[snipped all the stuff about Tina and Bette's scene just cause the
format was screwed up, but here's your reply:]
Post by AJ
I don't like the physically violent side of this "love" ... for me
there is no going back after coming to blows and probably shouldn't
because if they went there once it will sure as hell happen again.
So, you end up with a stung cheek but you have a love that moves you
to your soul. <g> Abuse is bad. Unhealthy. Passion is good. Hot. And
sometimes it stings. Each person has to draw that line for themselves.
But I wouldn't call what they did coming to blows. If Tina slapped
Bette because Bette forgot something at the grovery store, that would
be coming to blows. If Bette ripped off Tina's clothes b/c she was
drunk and felt like having sex and Tina didn't, even if Tina stopped
Bette, that would be coming to blows. In this scene what I personally
saw was two people who have a deep passion for each other, driven to
their limits. Past their limits. And acting out of character -- and
out of the normal interplay of their relationship -- in reaction to
deep loss. But I understand you see it much more pragmatically.
[...]
Post by AJ
Post by AJ
I like Robin and Jenny together .. except that the dress Jenny was
wearing might be grounds for breaking up ....
LOL! I said the same thing to Wolf. It looked like a potato sack.
Post by AJ
I think they could have a chance. Robin seems to be someone
who (like Gene) can over-look Jen's wierdness.
She's a trapeze artist for krissakes. And he talks to seals. I think
Jenn is pretty well camoflauged in their eyes. <g>
Must have been the brown potatoe sack disguise.<g>
With the caveman strap diagonal across one shoulder.
she's like the carrie (of sex n the city) of the show. leaving us with the
"what the fuck are you wearing now" questions.
Post by l***@large
[...]
Post by AJ
Post by AJ
I give it a B. And I *do* want to know what happens next season
and I *will* watch. So they accomplished something,
despite all our complaints. :)
I'll be front row center too.
Oh goody. You bring the popcorn, Wolf and I will bring the Milk
Duds, Sweet Tarts, Hot Tamales and Red Whips. [...]
Don't forget the Junior Mints.
Tell Tulgey -- she got reassigned to candy. :)
l***@large
2004-04-17 02:10:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chel Pompa
Post by l***@large
Post by AJ
Must have been the brown potatoe sack disguise.<g>
With the caveman strap diagonal across one shoulder.
she's like the carrie (of sex n the city) of the show. leaving us with the
"what the fuck are you wearing now" questions.
I watched Sex In The City maybe three times. Wasn't my kind of sex. :)
Don't even know which one Carrie was!
Tulgey Wood
2004-04-18 04:46:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@large
Post by AJ
Post by l***@large.com
You bring the popcorn, Wolf and I will bring the Milk
Duds, Sweet Tarts, Hot Tamales and Red Whips. [...]
Don't forget the Junior Mints.
Tell Tulgey -- she got reassigned to candy. :)
I don't do candy, dammit. Besides which, she's Bette's problem.
l***@large.com
2004-04-19 00:50:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
Post by AJ
Post by l***@large.com
You bring the popcorn, Wolf and I will bring the Milk
Duds, Sweet Tarts, Hot Tamales and Red Whips. [...]
Don't forget the Junior Mints.
Tell Tulgey -- she got reassigned to candy. :)
I don't do candy, dammit. Besides which, she's Bette's problem.
I'LL BRING THE JUNIOR MISS! <?> Mints! And we can bring Candy too, then
leave her in the theater tied to a trash recepticle.
Tulgey Wood
2004-04-19 15:36:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
Post by AJ
Don't forget the Junior Mints.
Tell Tulgey -- she got reassigned to candy. :)
I don't do candy, dammit. Besides which, she's Bette's problem.
I'LL BRING THE JUNIOR MISS! <?> Mints! And we can bring Candy too, then
leave her in the theater tied to a trash recepticle.
You have a dark turna mind. ;-D
Tulgey Wood
2004-04-15 00:50:55 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by AJ
I like Robin and Jenny together .. except that the dress Jenny was
wearing might be grounds for breaking up ....
Dress? Dress? I gotta wonder why I don't recall a dress, especially an
unfortunate dress. (Oh dear, this could set back my therapy several
months....) =O

[snip]
Post by AJ
Post by l***@large.com
Seems Marina will be back since she thinks she's in love, unless we
come back 'after the fact' next season to find J. broke her heart,
she sold the Planet and moved somewhere.
No ... no ... no . Marina stays :)
Well, if she must. But she must observe revised house rules:

1 No head games.
2 No hair badly in need of a shampoo.
3 No exclusive self-involvement.
4 No exceptions. :-P

[snip]

[re Ivan:]
Post by AJ
Kelly Lynch is really hidding her light under a bushel basket in this
role.
Or she's done such an excellent job playing a drag king that she's
completely unrecognizable as Kelly Lynch. (Kelly Lynch is Ivan?!
Bloody hell. Huh.)
Anne
2004-04-14 02:07:02 UTC
Permalink
This was the ultimate "what the f#ck episode??" in all aspects.

We found the Bette and Tina bedroom scene a bit disturbing. Call us naive
but would this really happen? Scream and yell...yes...but ripping off your
partners clothes and forcibly holding her down on the bed. What the hell?

I have to say that the whole episode kept us interested EXCEPT for the drag
king singing. Why waste air time with her singing in the parking lot?
Maybe have her start singing to make the point and then cut to another
scene. We thought that this scene lasted way too long...was boring...and
added nothing to the story.

I wanted to bitch slap a few people in this episode!

Anne
Post by l***@large.com
So, taking into consideration what we've already been asked to accept --
whether it's made sense or not -- (i.e. that Bette and CC have a thing;
that Kit is confused about a drag king; that Dana's lost her mind with
Tanya; that Shane loves a woman for no earthly reasons we've been shown;
and that Jenny somehow has become the sane one) -- accepting all that
unbelievable stuff as the starting point, the ep basically worked. It
left everyone with a choice (as Wolf put it), and things did build to a
colossal head in that sense. Or close to one. (Shane's "climax" was weak
imo but thrown in the mix it didn't matter much.)
Being positive, I thought the scenes between Bette and CC were good as
far as the "written" passion goes, (i.e. the scenes were written fine
but imo they don't have chemistry and I don't like the storyline, so...)
Still we finally saw women being intimate vs M/F sex. But the scene of
them making it up against Bette's office door was just ... not even a
smidge believable. Anyone would have come knocking to see what the
banging was about. And CC didn't even have her hammer with her. <g>
I *did* like how they all converged inside the Jesus gallery... and
Bette walking around holding Tina's hand. (Those two are *h-o-t*
together.) And I also liked how Tina saw Bette and CC at a distance, and
just the little gestures and intimacy she witnessed said it all. Ilene
didn't hit us over the head with it and we all got it. Well done.
Carrying through I also liked how Bette sees Tina sitting, staring at
her in the dressing mirror, and knows something is wrong immediately.
(But I did wonder about the ride home. Guess Tina would have waited to
get home. In shock and not wanting to talk in the car where you can't
really confront and look at each other.) But as far as Tina's slap I was
hoping for a bigger wallop. <g>
The sex scene afterwards was an emotional roller coaster... wondering at
first if Bette was raping Tina... watching the hurt explode into the
love that's obviously there. Laurel was amazing. So was Jennifer but it
was really Tina's scene. It was intense. But I wouldn't have liked it if
Tina stayed with Bette afterwards. It was good how it ended with her at
Alice's... the scene of her walking to the board.... very good.
And speaking of Alice, we didn't see a whole lot of her. But she's the
one who's always there. So sweet when Mr. Piddles was gone. (Did you
catch Tanya standing behind rolling her eyes at all the fuss over a dead
cat? Referring to Mr. P as "it"?) And thank gawd she comes to her senses
and raps on Dana's door at 4am to lay a wet one on her. I'd read a
spoiler about this months ago, so I knew it was coming. But I thought
they did a good job of foreshadowing it by Alice paying particular attn
to Dana over the season without being too obvious about it. I'm not sure
I can see Alice and D. together... they're both kind of goofy... maybe.
But I liked how Alice pulled back and Dana kissed *Alice* then. Rather
than leaving it all on Alice and not letting us know what Dana's
reaction was. It is definitely something to look forward to next season.
Shane. I don't have much to say there b/c that whole affair was wacky to
begin with. Shane is the maverick... never settles down... I know she
expressed an interest in finding someone on Seaman (the ship party), but
I don't see her being so stupid as to pick a married woman with kids who
has a shitload of money and is used to a certain lifestyle. Shane is not
that stupid. Plus I never saw any chemistry between them and nothing to
lead me to believe they were anything more than a casual fling to each
other. Would like to hear what others think.
The Jenny storyline was kind of nice after all, in this ep, if you take
out the entire middle boring part with Gene. The little trapeze girl
seems nice (and she turned out to be a pretty good actor too imo), and I
liked it that they all ended up all playing a board game together rather
than in bed. Maybe Jenny *is* growing up.
Seems Marina will be back since she thinks she's in love, unless we come
back 'after the fact' next season to find J. broke her heart, she sold
the Planet and moved somewhere.
And Kit. Ok. To be nice I *think* what they're trying to say is that Kit
is looking for love when love is staring her in the face. That Ivan is
perfect except she's a woman and Kit wants a man. Well you know what?
That's a HUGE fucking "except." I wouldn't be with a guy who thought he
could give me what I wanted, and I don't know why Kit should try to be
with a woman. And what was with going to the exhibit in drag? And
performing that number in the parking lot? Was that supposed to be
funny? Campy? Serious? Cute? And are we really supposed to think that no
one realizes Ivan is a woman when in drag? Or not? And couldn't they
have picked someone more physically compatible with Kit? Or was that the
point? That love doesn't always look like what it's 'supposed' to? Well,
that's fine, but 'they don't got love.' Kit said she wanted a man. Ivan
didn't hear that. Maybe Ivan figures Kit just needs a little
encouragement, but I never saw any tendencies in Kit in this series. In
fact when Shane said, "Liquor in the front poker in the rear" (play on
words from old ep), Kit said, "No thanks." And another point of
confusion for me... Kit keeps saying she wants a man, and she knows Ivan
is a woman, and insists she isn't leading Ivan on... yet she treats Ivan
like a male date, taking her arm, calling her "he." If Kit wanted to
discourage Ivan's romantic interest in her, wouldn't she at least refer
to Ivan as SHE and not take her arm as if she were her male date?
Oh well. Whatever. I did think the look Ivan gave Tanya at Mr. Piddles'
funeral was funny (after Tanya finally shook her hand and Ivan was
moving on). And Ivan has a certain charm that does grow on you, but her
gelled back hair reminds me of a mullet and her drag thing is too weird
in that I don't know how she expects anyone to take that seriously -- or
maybe she doesn't.
But all in all accepting the foundation as they laid it out for us --
for better or worse -- I give it a B. And I *do* want to know what
happens next season and I *will* watch. So they accomplished something,
despite all our complaints. :)
Tulgey Wood
2004-04-14 04:29:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@large.com
So, taking into consideration what we've already been asked to accept --
whether it's made sense or not -- (i.e. that Bette and CC have a thing;
that Kit is confused about a drag king; that Dana's lost her mind with
Tanya; that Shane loves a woman for no earthly reasons we've been shown;
and that Jenny somehow has become the sane one) -- accepting all that
unbelievable stuff as the starting point, the ep basically worked.
LOL! That makes me think of Steve Martin's step-by-step instructions
for getting out of paying taxes: "First, get a million dollars...."
Once you get past those pesky sticking points, *anything* is possible.
:-D
Post by l***@large.com
It left everyone with a choice (as Wolf put it), and things did build
to a colossal head in that sense. Or close to one. (Shane's "climax"
was weak imo but thrown in the mix it didn't matter much.)
Shane who? ;-P
Post by l***@large.com
Being positive, I thought the scenes between Bette and CC were good as
far as the "written" passion goes, (i.e. the scenes were written fine
but imo they don't have chemistry and I don't like the storyline, so...)
Right and right. I hope next season I don't have to chose between
FFWing through the Bette/CC/Tina /_\ scenes or being sick.
Post by l***@large.com
Still we finally saw women being intimate vs M/F sex. But the scene of
them making it up against Bette's office door was just ... not even a
smidge believable. Anyone would have come knocking to see what the
banging was about. And CC didn't even have her hammer with her. <g>
Too right! I half expected Tina to walk in on them *then*. Or if not
Tina, then Bette's assistant. Or anyone walking in the hallway outside
the door (weren't the walls sort of an opaque fiberglass?).
Post by l***@large.com
I *did* like how they all converged inside the Jesus gallery... and
Bette walking around holding Tina's hand. (Those two are *h-o-t*
together.)
Oh, yeah. (Have I said before that IMO there's something very Xena &
Gabrielle about them?)
Post by l***@large.com
And I also liked how Tina saw Bette and CC at a distance, and
just the little gestures and intimacy she witnessed said it all. Ilene
didn't hit us over the head with it and we all got it. Well done.
Carrying through I also liked how Bette sees Tina sitting, staring at
her in the dressing mirror, and knows something is wrong immediately.
(But I did wonder about the ride home. Guess Tina would have waited to
get home. In shock and not wanting to talk in the car where you can't
really confront and look at each other.)
True. Plus, didn't Bette trigger the confrontation when she noticed
Tina acting catatonic? Catatonic-like symptoms during car rides aren't
all that unusual, but at home they are.
Post by l***@large.com
But as far as Tina's slap I was hoping for a bigger wallop. <g>
No kidding. I was expecting knuckles to land.
Post by l***@large.com
The sex scene afterwards was an emotional roller coaster... wondering at
first if Bette was raping Tina... watching the hurt explode into the
love that's obviously there. Laurel was amazing. So was Jennifer but it
was really Tina's scene. It was intense.
Yes, it was. Were we meant to flash back to CC telling Bette she can't
always be in control? Hmmm, I think soooo....
Post by l***@large.com
But I wouldn't have liked it if Tina stayed with Bette afterwards. It
was good how it ended with her at Alice's... the scene of her walking
to the board.... very good.
You know, I'm glad Tina left, too, but when she started diagramming the
event on Alice's whiteboard...I dunno, it was sort of unrealistic. If
it'd been me, when Alice asked what had happened, I would have just told
her, "Bette...museum carpenter...screwing...bitch...monkey...probably
dry wall. You sort it out, Al, I've had a long day."
Post by l***@large.com
And speaking of Alice, we didn't see a whole lot of her. But she's the
one who's always there. So sweet when Mr. Piddles was gone. (Did you
catch Tanya standing behind rolling her eyes at all the fuss over a dead
cat? Referring to Mr. P as "it"?)
Yes, and weren't we meant to catch her at it? Otherwise when S2 finally
comes round, we won't be down with Operation Vengeance, in which the
gang slice Tanya up into 14,367 bits and feed them to the "manatees."

Did anyone think it was weird that Dana announced her engagement to the
psycho Tanya at Mr Piddles's wake? Pardon me if it seems I don't get
out much, but since when do wakes double as engagement launches?
Post by l***@large.com
And thank gawd she comes to her senses and raps on Dana's door at 4am
to lay a wet one on her. I'd read a spoiler about this months ago, so
I knew it was coming. But I thought they did a good job of
foreshadowing it by Alice paying particular attn to Dana over the
season without being too obvious about it.
Yep, call me a hippie, but. :-D I *was* surprised, however, that Dana
felt the same way. There'd been no previous indication that she might,
AFAIK. And...she responded to Tanya's advances, and at least *tried* to
respond to Jenny's. Maybe Dana's just a responsive type, given an
attractive girl. :-)
Post by l***@large.com
I'm not sure I can see Alice and D. together... they're both kind of
goofy... maybe. But I liked how Alice pulled back and Dana kissed
*Alice* then. Rather than leaving it all on Alice and not letting us
know what Dana's reaction was. It is definitely something to look
forward to next season.
Yes, should be interesting.
Post by l***@large.com
Shane. I don't have much to say there b/c that whole affair was wacky to
begin with. Shane is the maverick... never settles down... I know she
expressed an interest in finding someone on Seaman (the ship party), but
I don't see her being so stupid as to pick a married woman with kids who
has a shitload of money and is used to a certain lifestyle. Shane is not
that stupid. Plus I never saw any chemistry between them and nothing to
lead me to believe they were anything more than a casual fling to each
other. Would like to hear what others think.
I felt like I missed the eight or ten eps that dealt with Shane falling
in love with her polar opposite. IAC, Shane's not stupid--love is. I
don't think she picked out Cheri to fall in love with--obviously, it's
just something that happened to her, like everything else in her life.
Things just happen to Shane. :-(
Post by l***@large.com
The Jenny storyline was kind of nice after all, in this ep, if you take
out the entire middle boring part with Gene.
After the first viewing, I FFWed through the Jenny/Gene sex scene, but
all in all, I thought Gene was rather sweet. I loved what he said to
Jenny after Tim acted like a jerk at the Provocations party.
Post by l***@large.com
The little trapeze girl seems nice (and she turned out to be a pretty
good actor too imo),
I think so, too. And Robin is sweet, too.
Post by l***@large.com
and I liked it that they all ended up all playing a board game
together rather than in bed.
Oh, gag. Jenny might have suggested it, and Gene, being a guy, was
probably keen, but I expect Robin put the skids on it. :-D
Post by l***@large.com
Maybe Jenny *is* growing up.
She seems to be "finding herself," IAC. Growing up is probably a whole
'nuther issue with her. :-)
Post by l***@large.com
Seems Marina will be back since she thinks she's in love, unless we come
back 'after the fact' next season to find J. broke her heart, she sold
the Planet and moved somewhere.
Sold! Next....
Post by l***@large.com
And Kit. Ok. To be nice I *think* what they're trying to say is that Kit
is looking for love when love is staring her in the face. That Ivan is
perfect except she's a woman and Kit wants a man. Well you know what?
That's a HUGE fucking "except." I wouldn't be with a guy who thought he
could give me what I wanted, and I don't know why Kit should try to be
with a woman.
I haven't a *clue* what they're trying to do with Kit.
Post by l***@large.com
And what was with going to the exhibit in drag? And performing that
number in the parking lot? Was that supposed to be funny? Campy?
Serious? Cute?
I thought it was creepy, but that may have been because the actor who
plays Ivan can't lip sync.
Post by l***@large.com
And are we really supposed to think that no one realizes Ivan is a
woman when in drag? Or not? And couldn't they have picked someone
more physically compatible with Kit? Or was that the point? That love
doesn't always look like what it's 'supposed' to? Well, that's fine,
but 'they don't got love.'
Exactly. That's probably why I'm baffled by the whole thing.
Post by l***@large.com
Kit said she wanted a man. Ivan didn't hear that. Maybe Ivan figures
Kit just needs a little encouragement, but I never saw any tendencies
in Kit in this series. In fact when Shane said, "Liquor in the front
poker in the rear" (play on words from old ep), Kit said, "No
thanks." And another point of confusion for me... Kit keeps saying
she wants a man, and she knows Ivan is a woman, and insists she isn't
leading Ivan on... yet she treats Ivan like a male date, taking her
arm, calling her "he." If Kit wanted to discourage Ivan's romantic
interest in her, wouldn't she at least refer to Ivan as SHE and not
take her arm as if she were her male date?
I think maybe the writers didn't think this one through more than a few
pages of script. I guess we'll find out where they're going with it
next season, but honestly.
Post by l***@large.com
Oh well. Whatever. I did think the look Ivan gave Tanya at Mr. Piddles'
funeral was funny (after Tanya finally shook her hand and Ivan was
moving on). And Ivan has a certain charm that does grow on you, but her
gelled back hair reminds me of a mullet and her drag thing is too weird
in that I don't know how she expects anyone to take that seriously -- or
maybe she doesn't.
I just can't figure this one out...and that sort of ticks me off because
the simplest explanation (that Ivan is genuine and Kit is intended to
fall for her) is totally bogus.
Post by l***@large.com
But all in all accepting the foundation as they laid it out for us --
for better or worse -- I give it a B. And I *do* want to know what
happens next season and I *will* watch. So they accomplished something,
despite all our complaints. :)
In spite of it all, with the exception of one or two wackos, the
characters are very likeable. I'm still interested in them, in spite of
the fact the writers tried their best to screw up every last one of
them.
l***@large
2004-04-14 18:35:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
So, taking into consideration what we've already been asked to accept --
whether it's made sense or not -- [snip sticking points] -- accepting all that
unbelievable stuff as the starting point, the ep basically worked.
LOL! That makes me think of Steve Martin's step-by-step instructions
for getting out of paying taxes: "First, get a million dollars...."
Once you get past those pesky sticking points, *anything* is possible.
:-D
ROTF. Well, I mean... if we aren't going to start from where we are
then *nothing's* going to be any good, right? :)
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
Still we finally saw women being intimate vs M/F sex. But the scene of
them making it up against Bette's office door was just ... not even a
smidge believable. Anyone would have come knocking to see what the
banging was about. And CC didn't even have her hammer with her. <g>
Too right! I half expected Tina to walk in on them *then*. Or if not
Tina, then Bette's assistant. Or anyone walking in the hallway outside
the door (weren't the walls sort of an opaque fiberglass?).
Yes, but I think maybe the door was solid and I couldn't tell for sure
but I thought they were up against the opaque stuff and not the door.
IAC they were close enough to the opaque stuff to practically be
fucking in the gallery. And I expected Bette's assistant to walk in
too. Then I realized we were only there for the obligatory, raunchy
Jackie-Collins-style screw-in-the-office encounter and the encounter
itself was the only point. 'The bangy'er the better.' (At least Ricky
Martin wasn't cued at that point.) o/~ "She bangs! She bangs! When
she moves, she moves!"... o/~
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
I *did* like how they all converged inside the Jesus gallery... and
Bette walking around holding Tina's hand. (Those two are *h-o-t*
together.)
Oh, yeah. (Have I said before that IMO there's something very Xena &
Gabrielle about them?)
We think so too. Sometimes Tina even looks like Gabreille and she
sounds like ROC with her Texas twang. Mama bear! I see Gabrielle in
Tina a lot.
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
And I also liked how Tina saw Bette and CC at a distance, and
just the little gestures and intimacy she witnessed said it all. Ilene
didn't hit us over the head with it and we all got it. Well done.
Carrying through I also liked how Bette sees Tina sitting, staring at
her in the dressing mirror, and knows something is wrong immediately.
(But I did wonder about the ride home. Guess Tina would have waited to
get home. In shock and not wanting to talk in the car where you can't
really confront and look at each other.)
True. Plus, didn't Bette trigger the confrontation when she noticed
Tina acting catatonic? Catatonic-like symptoms during car rides aren't
all that unusual, but at home they are.
Excellent observation and point!
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
The sex scene afterwards was an emotional roller coaster... wondering at
first if Bette was raping Tina... watching the hurt explode into the
love that's obviously there. Laurel was amazing. So was Jennifer but it
was really Tina's scene. It was intense.
Yes, it was. Were we meant to flash back to CC telling Bette she can't
always be in control? Hmmm, I think soooo....
One of those instances again though, where they use the same device
without camoflauging it in enough. "Suddenly everyone is throwing
Bette on her back." There are reasons for it of course, but it was
done a little crudely as far as the device itself went. It shouldn't
have been so noticeable [in the way we noticed it].
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
But I wouldn't have liked it if Tina stayed with Bette afterwards. It
was good how it ended with her at Alice's... the scene of her walking
to the board.... very good.
You know, I'm glad Tina left, too, but when she started diagramming the
event on Alice's whiteboard...I dunno, it was sort of unrealistic. If
it'd been me, when Alice asked what had happened, I would have just told
her, "Bette...museum carpenter...screwing...bitch...monkey...probably
dry wall. You sort it out, Al, I've had a long day."
I noticed another poster felt the same way. Since I explained there I
won't repeat here. But it worked for me.
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
And speaking of Alice, we didn't see a whole lot of her. But she's the
one who's always there. So sweet when Mr. Piddles was gone. (Did you
catch Tanya standing behind rolling her eyes at all the fuss over a dead
cat? Referring to Mr. P as "it"?)
Yes, and weren't we meant to catch her at it? Otherwise when S2 finally
comes round, we won't be down with Operation Vengeance, in which the
gang slice Tanya up into 14,367 bits and feed them to the "manatees."
I wonder if Tanya ends up telling her friend that she killed Dana's
cat (the girl she called when she kicked Mr. Piddles off the bed)...
then it gets back to Dana somehow. I do hope she ends up finding out,
even aside from being woo'd away by Alice.
Post by Tulgey Wood
Did anyone think it was weird that Dana announced her engagement to the
psycho Tanya at Mr Piddles's wake? Pardon me if it seems I don't get
out much, but since when do wakes double as engagement launches?
YES. Very weird. But if you notice Tanya is the one coaxing Dana to
tell everyone. It's like Tanya couldn't stand to let Mr. Piddles have
the spotlight, even at his own funeral. She had to subvert the
attention back to her. But I don't see Dana standing for that at that
moment, however, if she was letting Tanya control her so completely...
and it seemed to me it was something Tanya told her to do before the
event got started...[ i.e. "As long as everyone's going to be gathered
together, wouldn't it be a good time to..."]. That was the impression
I got anyway.
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
And thank gawd she comes to her senses and raps on Dana's door at 4am
to lay a wet one on her. I'd read a spoiler about this months ago, so
I knew it was coming. But I thought they did a good job of
foreshadowing it by Alice paying particular attn to Dana over the
season without being too obvious about it.
Yep, call me a hippie, but. :-D I *was* surprised, however, that Dana
felt the same way. There'd been no previous indication that she might,
AFAIK.
Like Wolf pointed out (I think) in another post, there was that scene
in an earlier ep where Alice and Dana are leaving a club together and
Alice invites Dana over and they have to state on what basis the
invitation is placed, and kind of both agree to be just friends. They
state they aren't attracted to each other, but in a way "that doth
protest too much." A little foreshadowing.
Post by Tulgey Wood
And...she responded to Tanya's advances, and at least *tried* to
respond to Jenny's. Maybe Dana's just a responsive type, given an
attractive girl. :-)
Aren't we all! That be what makes us lezbos! <g>
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
Shane. I don't have much to say there b/c that whole affair was wacky to
begin with. Shane is the maverick... never settles down... I know she
expressed an interest in finding someone on Seaman (the ship party), but
I don't see her being so stupid as to pick a married woman with kids who
has a shitload of money and is used to a certain lifestyle. Shane is not
that stupid. Plus I never saw any chemistry between them and nothing to
lead me to believe they were anything more than a casual fling to each
other. Would like to hear what others think.
I felt like I missed the eight or ten eps that dealt with Shane falling
in love with her polar opposite.
LOL. I missed those too.
Post by Tulgey Wood
IAC, Shane's not stupid--love is. I
don't think she picked out Cheri to fall in love with--obviously, it's
just something that happened to her, like everything else in her life.
Things just happen to Shane. :-(
I hear you, but Shane is not that naive. She views attractions and
relationships objectovely, from the outside. The second she met Cheri,
before they ever spoke a word, she already knew she was a married
socialite, and she soon found out she had a kid. You'd have to walk
around with no boundaries whatsoever and no common sense filter, to
allow yourself to then develop feelings for someone like that. If you
had any worldly sense at all, and any ability to view relationships
and life objectively, you would immediately categorize Cheri before
ever meeting her, as someone into a whole different thing than you
are, and not an object of interest to develop. A fling? (Not for me
but) for Shane, maybe. But feelings? I appreciate your opinion but I
myself don't buy it.

But like you said... if we'd seen those ten ep's that filled in the
holes and made it believable...maybe then. ;)
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
The Jenny storyline was kind of nice after all, in this ep, if you take
out the entire middle boring part with Gene.
After the first viewing, I FFWed through the Jenny/Gene sex scene, but
all in all, I thought Gene was rather sweet. I loved what he said to
Jenny after Tim acted like a jerk at the Provocations party.
Yeah. That was nice. But why does he part his hair down the center?
<g>
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
The little trapeze girl seems nice (and she turned out to be a pretty
good actor too imo),
I think so, too. And Robin is sweet, too.
Post by l***@large.com
and I liked it that they all ended up all playing a board game
together rather than in bed.
Oh, gag. Jenny might have suggested it, and Gene, being a guy, was
probably keen, but I expect Robin put the skids on it. :-D
Gag? Really? I really liked that. It was like they all had sexual
intentions and desires, but then they all just said, oh hell. But what
was REALLY funny was ever since you posted that thing about Jenny
grabbing her face and saying "fuuuuuuck" we laugh every time she says
and does it. Like when she was listening to Marina's phone message.
First off, after a few seconds in her face goes to this, "I can't
believe this crazy bitch" expression which we found really funny
because now Marina is the crazy one and Jenny is sane... but then
after Marina is done and it beeps off, Jenn says, "fuuuuuuck!" and we
laughed really hard. I do like Jenn though. And she is gorgeous.
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
Maybe Jenny *is* growing up.
She seems to be "finding herself," IAC. Growing up is probably a whole
'nuther issue with her. :-)
We'll need lots more seasons for that. ;)
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
Seems Marina will be back since she thinks she's in love, unless we come
back 'after the fact' next season to find J. broke her heart, she sold
the Planet and moved somewhere.
Sold! Next....
LOL!
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
And Kit. Ok. To be nice I *think* what they're trying to say is that Kit
is looking for love when love is staring her in the face. That Ivan is
perfect except she's a woman and Kit wants a man. Well you know what?
That's a HUGE fucking "except." I wouldn't be with a guy who thought he
could give me what I wanted, and I don't know why Kit should try to be
with a woman.
I haven't a *clue* what they're trying to do with Kit.
Post by l***@large.com
And what was with going to the exhibit in drag? And performing that
number in the parking lot? Was that supposed to be funny? Campy?
Serious? Cute?
I thought it was creepy, but that may have been because the actor who
plays Ivan can't lip sync.
ROTF!! I was thinking about how she had to learn that song to do that
scene and how she musta been listeing to it night and day driving in
her car, etc. Also how she musta felt like an ass -- and taking all
that into consideration she did a good job. Pam seemed to get a kick
out of Kelly's pain when the number started and Kit boosted herself up
on to the hood of the car (or situated herself anyway) she was looking
at Kelly and it looked to me like there was this "knowing" exchange
between them of "here we go."
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
But all in all accepting the foundation as they laid it out for us --
for better or worse -- I give it a B. And I *do* want to know what
happens next season and I *will* watch. So they accomplished something,
despite all our complaints. :)
In spite of it all, with the exception of one or two wackos, the
characters are very likeable. I'm still interested in them, in spite of
the fact the writers tried their best to screw up every last one of
them.
Maybe all the feedback will have done some good. We can hope.

***@large
Chel Pompa
2004-04-15 02:21:01 UTC
Permalink
Re: > We think so too. Sometimes Tina even looks like Gabreille and she
Post by l***@large
sounds like ROC with her Texas twang. Mama bear! I see Gabrielle in
Tina a lot.
Texas twang?!?!? really?!?! i heard her as something different - like
canadian. anybody know where she's from?

-chel
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
So, taking into consideration what we've already been asked to accept --
whether it's made sense or not -- [snip sticking points] -- accepting all that
unbelievable stuff as the starting point, the ep basically worked.
LOL! That makes me think of Steve Martin's step-by-step instructions
for getting out of paying taxes: "First, get a million dollars...."
Once you get past those pesky sticking points, *anything* is possible.
:-D
ROTF. Well, I mean... if we aren't going to start from where we are
then *nothing's* going to be any good, right? :)
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
Still we finally saw women being intimate vs M/F sex. But the scene of
them making it up against Bette's office door was just ... not even a
smidge believable. Anyone would have come knocking to see what the
banging was about. And CC didn't even have her hammer with her. <g>
Too right! I half expected Tina to walk in on them *then*. Or if not
Tina, then Bette's assistant. Or anyone walking in the hallway outside
the door (weren't the walls sort of an opaque fiberglass?).
Yes, but I think maybe the door was solid and I couldn't tell for sure
but I thought they were up against the opaque stuff and not the door.
IAC they were close enough to the opaque stuff to practically be
fucking in the gallery. And I expected Bette's assistant to walk in
too. Then I realized we were only there for the obligatory, raunchy
Jackie-Collins-style screw-in-the-office encounter and the encounter
itself was the only point. 'The bangy'er the better.' (At least Ricky
Martin wasn't cued at that point.) o/~ "She bangs! She bangs! When
she moves, she moves!"... o/~
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
I *did* like how they all converged inside the Jesus gallery... and
Bette walking around holding Tina's hand. (Those two are *h-o-t*
together.)
Oh, yeah. (Have I said before that IMO there's something very Xena &
Gabrielle about them?)
We think so too. Sometimes Tina even looks like Gabreille and she
sounds like ROC with her Texas twang. Mama bear! I see Gabrielle in
Tina a lot.
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
And I also liked how Tina saw Bette and CC at a distance, and
just the little gestures and intimacy she witnessed said it all. Ilene
didn't hit us over the head with it and we all got it. Well done.
Carrying through I also liked how Bette sees Tina sitting, staring at
her in the dressing mirror, and knows something is wrong immediately.
(But I did wonder about the ride home. Guess Tina would have waited to
get home. In shock and not wanting to talk in the car where you can't
really confront and look at each other.)
True. Plus, didn't Bette trigger the confrontation when she noticed
Tina acting catatonic? Catatonic-like symptoms during car rides aren't
all that unusual, but at home they are.
Excellent observation and point!
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
The sex scene afterwards was an emotional roller coaster... wondering at
first if Bette was raping Tina... watching the hurt explode into the
love that's obviously there. Laurel was amazing. So was Jennifer but it
was really Tina's scene. It was intense.
Yes, it was. Were we meant to flash back to CC telling Bette she can't
always be in control? Hmmm, I think soooo....
One of those instances again though, where they use the same device
without camoflauging it in enough. "Suddenly everyone is throwing
Bette on her back." There are reasons for it of course, but it was
done a little crudely as far as the device itself went. It shouldn't
have been so noticeable [in the way we noticed it].
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
But I wouldn't have liked it if Tina stayed with Bette afterwards. It
was good how it ended with her at Alice's... the scene of her walking
to the board.... very good.
You know, I'm glad Tina left, too, but when she started diagramming the
event on Alice's whiteboard...I dunno, it was sort of unrealistic. If
it'd been me, when Alice asked what had happened, I would have just told
her, "Bette...museum carpenter...screwing...bitch...monkey...probably
dry wall. You sort it out, Al, I've had a long day."
I noticed another poster felt the same way. Since I explained there I
won't repeat here. But it worked for me.
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
And speaking of Alice, we didn't see a whole lot of her. But she's the
one who's always there. So sweet when Mr. Piddles was gone. (Did you
catch Tanya standing behind rolling her eyes at all the fuss over a dead
cat? Referring to Mr. P as "it"?)
Yes, and weren't we meant to catch her at it? Otherwise when S2 finally
comes round, we won't be down with Operation Vengeance, in which the
gang slice Tanya up into 14,367 bits and feed them to the "manatees."
I wonder if Tanya ends up telling her friend that she killed Dana's
cat (the girl she called when she kicked Mr. Piddles off the bed)...
then it gets back to Dana somehow. I do hope she ends up finding out,
even aside from being woo'd away by Alice.
Post by Tulgey Wood
Did anyone think it was weird that Dana announced her engagement to the
psycho Tanya at Mr Piddles's wake? Pardon me if it seems I don't get
out much, but since when do wakes double as engagement launches?
YES. Very weird. But if you notice Tanya is the one coaxing Dana to
tell everyone. It's like Tanya couldn't stand to let Mr. Piddles have
the spotlight, even at his own funeral. She had to subvert the
attention back to her. But I don't see Dana standing for that at that
moment, however, if she was letting Tanya control her so completely...
and it seemed to me it was something Tanya told her to do before the
event got started...[ i.e. "As long as everyone's going to be gathered
together, wouldn't it be a good time to..."]. That was the impression
I got anyway.
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
And thank gawd she comes to her senses and raps on Dana's door at 4am
to lay a wet one on her. I'd read a spoiler about this months ago, so
I knew it was coming. But I thought they did a good job of
foreshadowing it by Alice paying particular attn to Dana over the
season without being too obvious about it.
Yep, call me a hippie, but. :-D I *was* surprised, however, that Dana
felt the same way. There'd been no previous indication that she might,
AFAIK.
Like Wolf pointed out (I think) in another post, there was that scene
in an earlier ep where Alice and Dana are leaving a club together and
Alice invites Dana over and they have to state on what basis the
invitation is placed, and kind of both agree to be just friends. They
state they aren't attracted to each other, but in a way "that doth
protest too much." A little foreshadowing.
Post by Tulgey Wood
And...she responded to Tanya's advances, and at least *tried* to
respond to Jenny's. Maybe Dana's just a responsive type, given an
attractive girl. :-)
Aren't we all! That be what makes us lezbos! <g>
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
Shane. I don't have much to say there b/c that whole affair was wacky to
begin with. Shane is the maverick... never settles down... I know she
expressed an interest in finding someone on Seaman (the ship party), but
I don't see her being so stupid as to pick a married woman with kids who
has a shitload of money and is used to a certain lifestyle. Shane is not
that stupid. Plus I never saw any chemistry between them and nothing to
lead me to believe they were anything more than a casual fling to each
other. Would like to hear what others think.
I felt like I missed the eight or ten eps that dealt with Shane falling
in love with her polar opposite.
LOL. I missed those too.
Post by Tulgey Wood
IAC, Shane's not stupid--love is. I
don't think she picked out Cheri to fall in love with--obviously, it's
just something that happened to her, like everything else in her life.
Things just happen to Shane. :-(
I hear you, but Shane is not that naive. She views attractions and
relationships objectovely, from the outside. The second she met Cheri,
before they ever spoke a word, she already knew she was a married
socialite, and she soon found out she had a kid. You'd have to walk
around with no boundaries whatsoever and no common sense filter, to
allow yourself to then develop feelings for someone like that. If you
had any worldly sense at all, and any ability to view relationships
and life objectively, you would immediately categorize Cheri before
ever meeting her, as someone into a whole different thing than you
are, and not an object of interest to develop. A fling? (Not for me
but) for Shane, maybe. But feelings? I appreciate your opinion but I
myself don't buy it.
But like you said... if we'd seen those ten ep's that filled in the
holes and made it believable...maybe then. ;)
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
The Jenny storyline was kind of nice after all, in this ep, if you take
out the entire middle boring part with Gene.
After the first viewing, I FFWed through the Jenny/Gene sex scene, but
all in all, I thought Gene was rather sweet. I loved what he said to
Jenny after Tim acted like a jerk at the Provocations party.
Yeah. That was nice. But why does he part his hair down the center?
<g>
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
The little trapeze girl seems nice (and she turned out to be a pretty
good actor too imo),
I think so, too. And Robin is sweet, too.
Post by l***@large.com
and I liked it that they all ended up all playing a board game
together rather than in bed.
Oh, gag. Jenny might have suggested it, and Gene, being a guy, was
probably keen, but I expect Robin put the skids on it. :-D
Gag? Really? I really liked that. It was like they all had sexual
intentions and desires, but then they all just said, oh hell. But what
was REALLY funny was ever since you posted that thing about Jenny
grabbing her face and saying "fuuuuuuck" we laugh every time she says
and does it. Like when she was listening to Marina's phone message.
First off, after a few seconds in her face goes to this, "I can't
believe this crazy bitch" expression which we found really funny
because now Marina is the crazy one and Jenny is sane... but then
after Marina is done and it beeps off, Jenn says, "fuuuuuuck!" and we
laughed really hard. I do like Jenn though. And she is gorgeous.
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
Maybe Jenny *is* growing up.
She seems to be "finding herself," IAC. Growing up is probably a whole
'nuther issue with her. :-)
We'll need lots more seasons for that. ;)
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
Seems Marina will be back since she thinks she's in love, unless we come
back 'after the fact' next season to find J. broke her heart, she sold
the Planet and moved somewhere.
Sold! Next....
LOL!
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
And Kit. Ok. To be nice I *think* what they're trying to say is that Kit
is looking for love when love is staring her in the face. That Ivan is
perfect except she's a woman and Kit wants a man. Well you know what?
That's a HUGE fucking "except." I wouldn't be with a guy who thought he
could give me what I wanted, and I don't know why Kit should try to be
with a woman.
I haven't a *clue* what they're trying to do with Kit.
Post by l***@large.com
And what was with going to the exhibit in drag? And performing that
number in the parking lot? Was that supposed to be funny? Campy?
Serious? Cute?
I thought it was creepy, but that may have been because the actor who
plays Ivan can't lip sync.
ROTF!! I was thinking about how she had to learn that song to do that
scene and how she musta been listeing to it night and day driving in
her car, etc. Also how she musta felt like an ass -- and taking all
that into consideration she did a good job. Pam seemed to get a kick
out of Kelly's pain when the number started and Kit boosted herself up
on to the hood of the car (or situated herself anyway) she was looking
at Kelly and it looked to me like there was this "knowing" exchange
between them of "here we go."
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
But all in all accepting the foundation as they laid it out for us --
for better or worse -- I give it a B. And I *do* want to know what
happens next season and I *will* watch. So they accomplished something,
despite all our complaints. :)
In spite of it all, with the exception of one or two wackos, the
characters are very likeable. I'm still interested in them, in spite of
the fact the writers tried their best to screw up every last one of
them.
Maybe all the feedback will have done some good. We can hope.
l***@large
2004-04-15 05:47:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chel Pompa
Post by l***@large
We think so too. Sometimes Tina even looks like Gabreille and she
sounds like ROC with her Texas twang. Mama bear! I see Gabrielle in
Tina a lot.
Texas twang?!?!? really?!?! i heard her as something different - like
canadian. anybody know where she's from?
Born in Chapel Hill, NC per imdb... don't know where she spent time
after that. But the accent sounds Texan to my ear. (Or close enough to
remind me of ROC anyway... what the hell do I know, I live in L.A.) :)
Chel Pompa
2004-04-15 06:11:38 UTC
Permalink
sorry chicklette... not a texan accent. y'all just don't know!

:O)
Post by l***@large
Post by Chel Pompa
Post by l***@large
We think so too. Sometimes Tina even looks like Gabreille and she
sounds like ROC with her Texas twang. Mama bear! I see Gabrielle in
Tina a lot.
Texas twang?!?!? really?!?! i heard her as something different - like
canadian. anybody know where she's from?
Born in Chapel Hill, NC per imdb... don't know where she spent time
after that. But the accent sounds Texan to my ear. (Or close enough to
remind me of ROC anyway... what the hell do I know, I live in L.A.) :)
l***@large
2004-04-15 15:36:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chel Pompa
sorry chicklette... not a texan accent. y'all just don't know!
Well NC is a lot closer to Texas than Canada! And it sure as hell
ain't Canadian! Even *I* knew that! :D
AJ
2004-04-16 04:02:11 UTC
Permalink
This Texan didn't hear any twang in Tina, maybe just a bit of a
southern drawl.
AJ
Post by l***@large
Post by Chel Pompa
sorry chicklette... not a texan accent. y'all just don't know!
Well NC is a lot closer to Texas than Canada! And it sure as hell
ain't Canadian! Even *I* knew that! :D
Chel Pompa
2004-04-16 04:30:33 UTC
Permalink
fo sho!
Post by AJ
This Texan didn't hear any twang in Tina, maybe just a bit of a
southern drawl.
AJ
Post by l***@large
Post by Chel Pompa
sorry chicklette... not a texan accent. y'all just don't know!
Well NC is a lot closer to Texas than Canada! And it sure as hell
ain't Canadian! Even *I* knew that! :D
Tulgey Wood
2004-04-18 03:10:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
So, taking into consideration what we've already been asked to accept --
whether it's made sense or not -- [snip sticking points] -- accepting all that
unbelievable stuff as the starting point, the ep basically worked.
LOL! That makes me think of Steve Martin's step-by-step instructions
for getting out of paying taxes: "First, get a million dollars...."
Once you get past those pesky sticking points, *anything* is possible.
:-D
ROTF. Well, I mean... if we aren't going to start from where we are
then *nothing's* going to be any good, right? :)
Exactly right, just as without money it's pointless learning how to
avoid paying taxes. :-P
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
Still we finally saw women being intimate vs M/F sex. But the scene of
them making it up against Bette's office door was just ... not even a
smidge believable. Anyone would have come knocking to see what the
banging was about. And CC didn't even have her hammer with her. <g>
Too right! I half expected Tina to walk in on them *then*. Or if not
Tina, then Bette's assistant. Or anyone walking in the hallway outside
the door (weren't the walls sort of an opaque fiberglass?).
Yes, but I think maybe the door was solid
It was.
Post by l***@large
and I couldn't tell for sure but I thought they were up against the
opaque stuff and not the door.
Mostly against the door, and maybe overlapping a bit onto the opaque
wall, but IAC, *detectable* from the hallway.
Post by l***@large
IAC they were close enough to the opaque stuff to practically be
fucking in the gallery.
Exactly. Might as well have left the door open and told everyone they
were part of the Provocations exhibit. Hmmm, wonder if Bette tried
*that* one on Tina? :-P "I was trying to provoke you, dear. It was all
part of the exhibit. Provocations? Get it? D'oh? Sometimes I think
you just don't pay enough attention to my work."
Post by l***@large
And I expected Bette's assistant to walk in too. Then I realized we
were only there for the obligatory, raunchy Jackie-Collins-style
screw-in-the-office encounter and the encounter itself was the only
point. 'The bangy'er the better.' (At least Ricky Martin wasn't cued
at that point.) o/~ "She bangs! She bangs! When she moves, she
moves!"... o/~
ROTFL!!
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
I *did* like how they all converged inside the Jesus gallery... and
Bette walking around holding Tina's hand. (Those two are *h-o-t*
together.)
Oh, yeah. (Have I said before that IMO there's something very Xena &
Gabrielle about them?)
We think so too. Sometimes Tina even looks like Gabreille and she
sounds like ROC with her Texas twang. Mama bear! I see Gabrielle in
Tina a lot.
There is a mannerisms resemblance, definitely, and they're sort of the
same strawberry blonde-ish type. But LH seems taller than ROC by much.
IAC, they're definitely versions of X&G.

[snip]
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
The sex scene afterwards was an emotional roller coaster... wondering at
first if Bette was raping Tina... watching the hurt explode into the
love that's obviously there. Laurel was amazing. So was Jennifer but it
was really Tina's scene. It was intense.
Yes, it was. Were we meant to flash back to CC telling Bette she can't
always be in control? Hmmm, I think soooo....
One of those instances again though, where they use the same device
without camoflauging it in enough. "Suddenly everyone is throwing
Bette on her back." There are reasons for it of course, but it was
done a little crudely as far as the device itself went. It shouldn't
have been so noticeable [in the way we noticed it].
It had a lot of visual impact. How do you think they might have made
the point that Bette was out of control? <--Serious question--you're
very good with scenarios.

[snip]
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
And speaking of Alice, we didn't see a whole lot of her. But she's the
one who's always there. So sweet when Mr. Piddles was gone. (Did you
catch Tanya standing behind rolling her eyes at all the fuss over a dead
cat? Referring to Mr. P as "it"?)
Yes, and weren't we meant to catch her at it? Otherwise when S2 finally
comes round, we won't be down with Operation Vengeance, in which the
gang slice Tanya up into 14,367 bits and feed them to the "manatees."
I wonder if Tanya ends up telling her friend that she killed Dana's
cat (the girl she called when she kicked Mr. Piddles off the bed)...
then it gets back to Dana somehow. I do hope she ends up finding out,
even aside from being woo'd away by Alice.
I do, too. And they'll have to say she intentionally overdosed him,
because failing to give him a few doses of tapazole wouldn't have killed
him. First degree murder if she overdosed him. Man-two if she
underdosed him. IAC, her comeuppance is life in a psychiatric ward.
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Did anyone think it was weird that Dana announced her engagement to the
psycho Tanya at Mr Piddles's wake? Pardon me if it seems I don't get
out much, but since when do wakes double as engagement launches?
YES. Very weird. But if you notice Tanya is the one coaxing Dana to
tell everyone. It's like Tanya couldn't stand to let Mr. Piddles have
the spotlight, even at his own funeral. She had to subvert the
attention back to her. But I don't see Dana standing for that at that
moment, however, if she was letting Tanya control her so completely...
and it seemed to me it was something Tanya told her to do before the
event got started...[ i.e. "As long as everyone's going to be gathered
together, wouldn't it be a good time to..."]. That was the impression
I got anyway.
Oh, yeah, Tanya was steamrolling the entire thing. Since she met Tanya,
Dana's been acting like an airhead, or worse, an airbody (ie, blowup
doll). More bad writing, or is Tanya a poisoner? Did she poison Mr
Piddles, and is she doping Dana?
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
And thank gawd she comes to her senses and raps on Dana's door at 4am
to lay a wet one on her. I'd read a spoiler about this months ago, so
I knew it was coming. But I thought they did a good job of
foreshadowing it by Alice paying particular attn to Dana over the
season without being too obvious about it.
Yep, call me a hippie, but. :-D I *was* surprised, however, that Dana
felt the same way. There'd been no previous indication that she might,
AFAIK.
Like Wolf pointed out (I think) in another post, there was that scene
in an earlier ep where Alice and Dana are leaving a club together and
Alice invites Dana over and they have to state on what basis the
invitation is placed, and kind of both agree to be just friends. They
state they aren't attracted to each other, but in a way "that doth
protest too much." A little foreshadowing.
Okay, thanks. I don't recall that scene at all--yet another time I
wasn't paying attention....
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
And...she responded to Tanya's advances, and at least *tried* to
respond to Jenny's. Maybe Dana's just a responsive type, given an
attractive girl. :-)
[snip]
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
IAC, Shane's not stupid--love is. I don't think she picked out Cheri
to fall in love with--obviously, it's just something that happened
to her, like everything else in her life. Things just happen to
Shane. :-(
I hear you, but Shane is not that naive. She views attractions and
relationships objectovely, from the outside. The second she met Cheri,
before they ever spoke a word, she already knew she was a married
socialite, and she soon found out she had a kid. You'd have to walk
around with no boundaries whatsoever and no common sense filter, to
allow yourself to then develop feelings for someone like that.
Agreed. But sometimes developing feelings for someone can't be
controlled. IAC, Shane is inexperienced in the feelings department,
isn't she? And if this is the first time she's had these sort of
feelings for anyone, maybe they happened to her in spite of her filters?
Post by l***@large
If you had any worldly sense at all, and any ability to view
relationships and life objectively, you would immediately categorize
Cheri before ever meeting her, as someone into a whole different
thing than you are, and not an object of interest to develop. A
fling? (Not for me but) for Shane, maybe. But feelings? I appreciate
your opinion but I myself don't buy it.
Neither do I. I'm just backpeddling like mad trying to explain it. :-D
Post by l***@large
But like you said... if we'd seen those ten ep's that filled in the
holes and made it believable...maybe then. ;)
Yeah. Hopefully, none of them involved dry wall.
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
The Jenny storyline was kind of nice after all, in this ep, if you take
out the entire middle boring part with Gene.
After the first viewing, I FFWed through the Jenny/Gene sex scene, but
all in all, I thought Gene was rather sweet. I loved what he said to
Jenny after Tim acted like a jerk at the Provocations party.
Yeah. That was nice. But why does he part his hair down the center?
<g>
Just being trendy, luv. ;-)
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
The little trapeze girl seems nice (and she turned out to be a pretty
good actor too imo),
I think so, too. And Robin is sweet, too.
Post by l***@large.com
and I liked it that they all ended up all playing a board game
together rather than in bed.
Oh, gag. Jenny might have suggested it, and Gene, being a guy, was
probably keen, but I expect Robin put the skids on it. :-D
Gag? Really? I really liked that. It was like they all had sexual
intentions and desires, but then they all just said, oh hell.
Gag, yes. A threesome with Gene? Not my thing. :-O~~~~~~~~
Post by l***@large
But what was REALLY funny was ever since you posted that thing about
Jenny grabbing her face and saying "fuuuuuuck" we laugh every time
she says and does it.
LOL! She does it /a lot/. :-D
Post by l***@large
Like when she was listening to Marina's phone message.
First off, after a few seconds in her face goes to this, "I can't
believe this crazy bitch" expression which we found really funny
because now Marina is the crazy one and Jenny is sane... but then
after Marina is done and it beeps off, Jenn says, "fuuuuuuck!" and we
laughed really hard.
Yeah, so did I. That *was* funny.
Post by l***@large
I do like Jenn though. And she is gorgeous.
She is that.

[snip]
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
And what was with going to the exhibit in drag? And performing that
number in the parking lot? Was that supposed to be funny? Campy?
Serious? Cute?
I thought it was creepy, but that may have been because the actor who
plays Ivan can't lip sync.
ROTF!! I was thinking about how she had to learn that song to do that
scene and how she musta been listeing to it night and day driving in
her car, etc. Also how she musta felt like an ass -- and taking all
that into consideration she did a good job. Pam seemed to get a kick
out of Kelly's pain when the number started and Kit boosted herself up
on to the hood of the car (or situated herself anyway) she was looking
at Kelly and it looked to me like there was this "knowing" exchange
between them of "here we go."
I'll have to watch the ep again to look for that. I wonder if the look
you're talking about is the "torn" one Kit had, as if she were thinking,
"oh, god, she *is* everything I want in a man!"

I'll just watch the ep again, shall I? ;-)
l***@large.com
2004-04-19 00:54:10 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
Still we finally saw women being intimate vs M/F sex. But the scene of
them making it up against Bette's office door was just ... not even a
smidge believable. Anyone would have come knocking to see what the
banging was about. And CC didn't even have her hammer with her. <g>
Too right! I half expected Tina to walk in on them *then*. Or if not
Tina, then Bette's assistant. Or anyone walking in the hallway outside
the door (weren't the walls sort of an opaque fiberglass?).
Yes, but I think maybe the door was solid
It was.
Post by l***@large
and I couldn't tell for sure but I thought they were up against the
opaque stuff and not the door.
Mostly against the door, and maybe overlapping a bit onto the opaque
wall, but IAC, *detectable* from the hallway.
Post by l***@large
IAC they were close enough to the opaque stuff to practically be
fucking in the gallery.
Exactly. Might as well have left the door open and told everyone they
were part of the Provocations exhibit. Hmmm, wonder if Bette tried
*that* one on Tina? :-P "I was trying to provoke you, dear. It was all
part of the exhibit. Provocations? Get it? D'oh? Sometimes I think
you just don't pay enough attention to my work."
ROTFLMAO!! We were *all* a little provoked, weren't we! And isn't it
funny what we were provoked _by_ (Tina catching Bette and CC playing
hand-footsie), when the exhibits themselves were like, "whatever." :-D
(I never thought of it like that before but I'm really laughing now
thinking of it... imagine watching the ep alongside some church-going
person... they'd be like, "My god! Is that supposed to be Jesus having
sex? And what's that? A man with his testacles bound?!" and we'd be
like, "Gasp! Look! Tina sees Bette taking CC's hand!!")

LOL!!

We are so totally healthy. :-D
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
I *did* like how they all converged inside the Jesus gallery... and
Bette walking around holding Tina's hand. (Those two are *h-o-t*
together.)
Oh, yeah. (Have I said before that IMO there's something very Xena &
Gabrielle about them?)
We think so too. Sometimes Tina even looks like Gabreille and she
sounds like ROC with her Texas twang. Mama bear! I see Gabrielle in
Tina a lot.
There is a mannerisms resemblance, definitely, and they're sort of the
same strawberry blonde-ish type. But LH seems taller than ROC by much.
IAC, they're definitely versions of X&G.
So right on.
Post by Tulgey Wood
[snip]
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
The sex scene afterwards was an emotional roller coaster... wondering at
first if Bette was raping Tina... watching the hurt explode into the
love that's obviously there. Laurel was amazing. So was Jennifer but it
was really Tina's scene. It was intense.
Yes, it was. Were we meant to flash back to CC telling Bette she can't
always be in control? Hmmm, I think soooo....
One of those instances again though, where they use the same device
without camoflauging it in enough. "Suddenly everyone is throwing
Bette on her back." There are reasons for it of course, but it was
done a little crudely as far as the device itself went. It shouldn't
have been so noticeable [in the way we noticed it].
It had a lot of visual impact. How do you think they might have made
the point that Bette was out of control? <--Serious question--you're
very good with scenarios.
I wasn't very clear actually. Throwing Bette on her back wasn't the
problem, but that [imo] it called attention to itself as a device by
ringing too loudly (vs subtley) of the previous scene with CC and Bette.
The 2nd toss-down should have hit us fresh and organic... not sprung CC
to mind like a mousetrap. We still would have made the connection to
"Bette's out of control." It could have been something as simple as
filming both toss-downs from the same angles, or distance, or perhaps
that Bette landed exactly the same way in both scenes...maybe it was
dialog... I can't say what made it heavy-handed without watching it
again.
Post by Tulgey Wood
[snip]
Post by l***@large
I wonder if Tanya ends up telling her friend that she killed Dana's
cat (the girl she called when she kicked Mr. Piddles off the bed)...
then it gets back to Dana somehow. I do hope she ends up finding out,
even aside from being woo'd away by Alice.
I do, too. And they'll have to say she intentionally overdosed him,
because failing to give him a few doses of tapazole wouldn't have killed
him. First degree murder if she overdosed him. Man-two if she
underdosed him. IAC, her comeuppance is life in a psychiatric ward.
And shave her head and eyebrows!
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Did anyone think it was weird that Dana announced her engagement to the
psycho Tanya at Mr Piddles's wake? Pardon me if it seems I don't get
out much, but since when do wakes double as engagement launches?
YES. Very weird. But if you notice Tanya is the one coaxing Dana to
tell everyone. It's like Tanya couldn't stand to let Mr. Piddles have
the spotlight, even at his own funeral. She had to subvert the
attention back to her. But I don't see Dana standing for that at that
moment, however, if she was letting Tanya control her so completely...
and it seemed to me it was something Tanya told her to do before the
event got started...[ i.e. "As long as everyone's going to be gathered
together, wouldn't it be a good time to..."]. That was the impression
I got anyway.
Oh, yeah, Tanya was steamrolling the entire thing. Since she met Tanya,
Dana's been acting like an airhead, or worse, an airbody (ie, blowup
doll).
LOL!!
Post by Tulgey Wood
More bad writing, or is Tanya a poisoner? Did she poison Mr
Piddles, and is she doping Dana?
o/~ "Dopey Di-ana, oh! Dopey Di-ana, oh!" o/~ (sorry, lapsed into some
old Michael Jackson.)
Post by Tulgey Wood
[snip]
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
IAC, Shane's not stupid--love is. I don't think she picked out Cheri
to fall in love with--obviously, it's just something that happened
to her, like everything else in her life. Things just happen to
Shane. :-(
I hear you, but Shane is not that naive. She views attractions and
relationships objectovely, from the outside. The second she met Cheri,
before they ever spoke a word, she already knew she was a married
socialite, and she soon found out she had a kid. You'd have to walk
around with no boundaries whatsoever and no common sense filter, to
allow yourself to then develop feelings for someone like that.
Agreed. But sometimes developing feelings for someone can't be
controlled. IAC, Shane is inexperienced in the feelings department,
isn't she? And if this is the first time she's had these sort of
feelings for anyone, maybe they happened to her in spite of her filters?
All true. I guess I just don't see a hard core lesbian like Shane being
attracted to a married bisexual woman with a husband and a kid.

I realize this is make believe but I can't make myself believe. <g>
Maybe if Cheri and her husband were currently separated, I'd find it
easier. But I don't know a single life-long lesbian who would be willing
to have sex with a woman who was actively sleeping with, and married to,
a man. In fact, I don't know any lesbian who would do that. I'm not
saying there aren't any... I'm sure there are. But when the ratio is so
low it seems a dumb thing to write a drama around, if'n ya want people
to readily accept it.

OTOH if they had shown us those 10 episodes we missed where this was all
accounted for... ;-D
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
[...] I appreciate your opinion but I myself don't buy it.
Neither do I. I'm just backpeddling like mad trying to explain it. :-D
D'oh!

[snip]
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
The little trapeze girl seems nice (and she turned out to be a pretty
good actor too imo),
I think so, too. And Robin is sweet, too.
Post by l***@large.com
and I liked it that they all ended up all playing a board game
together rather than in bed.
Oh, gag. Jenny might have suggested it, and Gene, being a guy, was
probably keen, but I expect Robin put the skids on it. :-D
Gag? Really? I really liked that. It was like they all had sexual
intentions and desires, but then they all just said, oh hell.
Gag, yes. A threesome with Gene? Not my thing. :-O~~~~~~~~
Wait! A threesome with Gene? Egads woman, where did you get that idea? I
was saying the opposite... that I was glad the writers *didn't* go there
and had them playing a board game instead!
Post by Tulgey Wood
[snip]
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
And what was with going to the exhibit in drag? And performing that
number in the parking lot? Was that supposed to be funny? Campy?
Serious? Cute?
I thought it was creepy, but that may have been because the actor who
plays Ivan can't lip sync.
ROTF!! I was thinking about how she had to learn that song to do that
scene and how she musta been listeing to it night and day driving in
her car, etc. Also how she musta felt like an ass -- and taking all
that into consideration she did a good job. Pam seemed to get a kick
out of Kelly's pain when the number started and Kit boosted herself up
on to the hood of the car (or situated herself anyway) she was looking
at Kelly and it looked to me like there was this "knowing" exchange
between them of "here we go."
I'll have to watch the ep again to look for that. I wonder if the look
you're talking about is the "torn" one Kit had, as if she were thinking,
"oh, god, she *is* everything I want in a man!"
No! (That was funny for other reasons!) Right when Ivan comes around
from getting her hat outa the car and is about to start singing (or has
JUST started) and Kit kind of boosts herself up on the hood and she's in
the b.g. of the shot, and she's looking at Ivan and has kind of this
shitty grin or playfulness in her eyes like they've cracked up about
this off camera.
Post by Tulgey Wood
I'll just watch the ep again, shall I? ;-)
:-) I will too, but not tonight!

***@large
AJ
2004-04-19 03:29:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@large.com
[...]
Post by Tulgey Wood
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Still we finally saw women being intimate vs M/F sex. But the scene of
them making it up against Bette's office door was just ... not even a
smidge believable. Anyone would have come knocking to see what the
banging was about. And CC didn't even have her hammer with her. <g>
Too right! I half expected Tina to walk in on them *then*. Or if not
Tina, then Bette's assistant. Or anyone walking in the hallway outside
the door (weren't the walls sort of an opaque fiberglass?).
Yes, but I think maybe the door was solid
It was.
Post by l***@large
and I couldn't tell for sure but I thought they were up against the
opaque stuff and not the door.
Mostly against the door, and maybe overlapping a bit onto the
opaque
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
wall, but IAC, *detectable* from the hallway.
Post by l***@large
IAC they were close enough to the opaque stuff to practically be
fucking in the gallery.
Exactly. Might as well have left the door open and told everyone they
were part of the Provocations exhibit. Hmmm, wonder if Bette tried
*that* one on Tina? :-P "I was trying to provoke you, dear. It was all
part of the exhibit. Provocations? Get it? D'oh? Sometimes I think
you just don't pay enough attention to my work."
ROTFLMAO!! We were *all* a little provoked, weren't we! And isn't it
funny what we were provoked _by_ (Tina catching Bette and CC playing
hand-footsie), when the exhibits themselves were like, "whatever." :-D
(I never thought of it like that before but I'm really laughing now
thinking of it... imagine watching the ep alongside some
church-going
Post by l***@large.com
person... they'd be like, "My god! Is that supposed to be Jesus having
sex? And what's that? A man with his testacles bound?!" and we'd be
like, "Gasp! Look! Tina sees Bette taking CC's hand!!")
LOL!!
We are so totally healthy. :-D
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
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I *did* like how they all converged inside the Jesus gallery... and
Bette walking around holding Tina's hand. (Those two are
*h-o-t*
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
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Post by Tulgey Wood
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together.)
Oh, yeah. (Have I said before that IMO there's something very Xena &
Gabrielle about them?)
We think so too. Sometimes Tina even looks like Gabreille and she
sounds like ROC with her Texas twang. Mama bear! I see Gabrielle in
Tina a lot.
There is a mannerisms resemblance, definitely, and they're sort of the
same strawberry blonde-ish type. But LH seems taller than ROC by much.
IAC, they're definitely versions of X&G.
So right on.
Post by Tulgey Wood
[snip]
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
The sex scene afterwards was an emotional roller coaster... wondering at
first if Bette was raping Tina... watching the hurt explode into the
love that's obviously there. Laurel was amazing. So was
Jennifer but it
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
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Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
was really Tina's scene. It was intense.
Yes, it was. Were we meant to flash back to CC telling Bette she can't
always be in control? Hmmm, I think soooo....
One of those instances again though, where they use the same device
without camoflauging it in enough. "Suddenly everyone is throwing
Bette on her back." There are reasons for it of course, but it was
done a little crudely as far as the device itself went. It
shouldn't
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
have been so noticeable [in the way we noticed it].
It had a lot of visual impact. How do you think they might have made
the point that Bette was out of control? <--Serious
question--you're
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
very good with scenarios.
I wasn't very clear actually. Throwing Bette on her back wasn't the
problem, but that [imo] it called attention to itself as a device by
ringing too loudly (vs subtley) of the previous scene with CC and Bette.
The 2nd toss-down should have hit us fresh and organic... not sprung CC
to mind like a mousetrap. We still would have made the connection to
"Bette's out of control." It could have been something as simple as
filming both toss-downs from the same angles, or distance, or
perhaps
Post by l***@large.com
that Bette landed exactly the same way in both scenes...maybe it was
dialog... I can't say what made it heavy-handed without watching it
again.
Post by Tulgey Wood
[snip]
Post by l***@large
I wonder if Tanya ends up telling her friend that she killed Dana's
cat (the girl she called when she kicked Mr. Piddles off the bed)...
then it gets back to Dana somehow. I do hope she ends up finding out,
even aside from being woo'd away by Alice.
I do, too. And they'll have to say she intentionally overdosed him,
because failing to give him a few doses of tapazole wouldn't have killed
him. First degree murder if she overdosed him. Man-two if she
underdosed him. IAC, her comeuppance is life in a psychiatric ward.
And shave her head and eyebrows!
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Did anyone think it was weird that Dana announced her engagement to the
psycho Tanya at Mr Piddles's wake? Pardon me if it seems I don't get
out much, but since when do wakes double as engagement launches?
YES. Very weird. But if you notice Tanya is the one coaxing Dana to
tell everyone. It's like Tanya couldn't stand to let Mr. Piddles have
the spotlight, even at his own funeral. She had to subvert the
attention back to her. But I don't see Dana standing for that at that
moment, however, if she was letting Tanya control her so
completely...
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
and it seemed to me it was something Tanya told her to do before the
event got started...[ i.e. "As long as everyone's going to be gathered
together, wouldn't it be a good time to..."]. That was the
impression
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
I got anyway.
Oh, yeah, Tanya was steamrolling the entire thing. Since she met Tanya,
Dana's been acting like an airhead, or worse, an airbody (ie,
blowup
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
doll).
LOL!!
Post by Tulgey Wood
More bad writing, or is Tanya a poisoner? Did she poison Mr
Piddles, and is she doping Dana?
o/~ "Dopey Di-ana, oh! Dopey Di-ana, oh!" o/~ (sorry, lapsed into some
old Michael Jackson.)
Post by Tulgey Wood
[snip]
Post by l***@large
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IAC, Shane's not stupid--love is. I don't think she picked out Cheri
to fall in love with--obviously, it's just something that
happened
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
to her, like everything else in her life. Things just happen to
Shane. :-(
I hear you, but Shane is not that naive. She views attractions and
relationships objectovely, from the outside. The second she met Cheri,
before they ever spoke a word, she already knew she was a married
socialite, and she soon found out she had a kid. You'd have to walk
around with no boundaries whatsoever and no common sense filter, to
allow yourself to then develop feelings for someone like that.
Agreed. But sometimes developing feelings for someone can't be
controlled. IAC, Shane is inexperienced in the feelings
department,
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
isn't she? And if this is the first time she's had these sort of
feelings for anyone, maybe they happened to her in spite of her filters?
All true. I guess I just don't see a hard core lesbian like Shane being
attracted to a married bisexual woman with a husband and a kid.
I realize this is make believe but I can't make myself believe. <g>
Maybe if Cheri and her husband were currently separated, I'd find it
easier. But I don't know a single life-long lesbian who would be willing
to have sex with a woman who was actively sleeping with, and married to,
a man. In fact, I don't know any lesbian who would do that. I'm not
saying there aren't any... I'm sure there are. But when the ratio is so
low it seems a dumb thing to write a drama around, if'n ya want people
to readily accept it.
I do know (sadly more than one) those lesbians who choose married
women to have affairs with. Having seen them repeat the behavior more
than once I can tell that it is on purpose and it's to avoid winding
up in a committed relationship. If the woman were not married then
the chance would exist that she might (horrors!) move in and become
permanent. The married women all most always go back to the hubby.
Post by l***@large.com
OTOH if they had shown us those 10 episodes we missed where this was all
accounted for... ;-D
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
[...] I appreciate your opinion but I myself don't buy it.
Neither do I. I'm just backpeddling like mad trying to explain it. :-D
D'oh!
[snip]
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
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The little trapeze girl seems nice (and she turned out to be a pretty
good actor too imo),
I think so, too. And Robin is sweet, too.
Post by l***@large.com
and I liked it that they all ended up all playing a board game
together rather than in bed.
Oh, gag. Jenny might have suggested it, and Gene, being a guy, was
probably keen, but I expect Robin put the skids on it. :-D
Gag? Really? I really liked that. It was like they all had sexual
intentions and desires, but then they all just said, oh hell.
Gag, yes. A threesome with Gene? Not my thing. :-O~~~~~~~~
Wait! A threesome with Gene? Egads woman, where did you get that idea? I
was saying the opposite... that I was glad the writers *didn't* go there
and had them playing a board game instead!
Post by Tulgey Wood
[snip]
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
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And what was with going to the exhibit in drag? And performing that
number in the parking lot? Was that supposed to be funny?
Campy?
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
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Serious? Cute?
I thought it was creepy, but that may have been because the actor who
plays Ivan can't lip sync.
ROTF!! I was thinking about how she had to learn that song to do that
scene and how she musta been listeing to it night and day driving in
her car, etc. Also how she musta felt like an ass -- and taking all
that into consideration she did a good job. Pam seemed to get a kick
out of Kelly's pain when the number started and Kit boosted
herself up
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
on to the hood of the car (or situated herself anyway) she was looking
at Kelly and it looked to me like there was this "knowing"
exchange
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
between them of "here we go."
I'll have to watch the ep again to look for that. I wonder if the look
you're talking about is the "torn" one Kit had, as if she were thinking,
"oh, god, she *is* everything I want in a man!"
No! (That was funny for other reasons!) Right when Ivan comes around
from getting her hat outa the car and is about to start singing (or has
JUST started) and Kit kind of boosts herself up on the hood and she's in
the b.g. of the shot, and she's looking at Ivan and has kind of this
shitty grin or playfulness in her eyes like they've cracked up about
this off camera.
Post by Tulgey Wood
I'll just watch the ep again, shall I? ;-)
:-) I will too, but not tonight!
Tulgey Wood
2004-04-19 15:41:54 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by AJ
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
IAC, Shane's not stupid--love is. I don't think she picked out
Cheri to fall in love with--obviously, it's just something that
happened to her, like everything else in her life. Things just
happen to Shane. :-(
I hear you, but Shane is not that naive. She views attractions and
relationships objectovely, from the outside. The second she met
Cheri before they ever spoke a word, she already knew she was a
married socialite, and she soon found out she had a kid. You'd
have to walk around with no boundaries whatsoever and no common
sense filter, to allow yourself to then develop feelings for
someone like that.
Agreed. But sometimes developing feelings for someone can't be
controlled. IAC, Shane is inexperienced in the feelings
department, isn't she? And if this is the first time she's had
these sort of feelings for anyone, maybe they happened to her in
spite of her filters?
All true. I guess I just don't see a hard core lesbian like Shane
being attracted to a married bisexual woman with a husband and a
kid.
I realize this is make believe but I can't make myself believe. <g>
Maybe if Cheri and her husband were currently separated, I'd find it
easier. But I don't know a single life-long lesbian who would be
willing to have sex with a woman who was actively sleeping with, and
married to, a man. In fact, I don't know any lesbian who would do
that. I'm not saying there aren't any... I'm sure there are. But
when the ratio is so low it seems a dumb thing to write a drama
around, if'n ya want people to readily accept it.
I do know (sadly more than one) those lesbians who choose married
women to have affairs with. Having seen them repeat the behavior more
than once I can tell that it is on purpose and it's to avoid winding
up in a committed relationship.
Shane certainly is into avoidance, but to her credit (?) she's willing
to tread where there's risk of entanglement and is up front about it
when it rears its ugly head. What's strange is that the (presumably)
one time she gets involved with someone who's already committed,
*that's* when she decides she wants a commitment.
Post by AJ
If the woman were not married then the chance would exist that she
might (horrors!) move in and become permanent. The married women all
most always go back to the hubby.
Yep. Ninety-nine times out of a hundred it's a bored housewife looking
for a thrill. (Er, not speaking from direct experience, of course.) =O
l***@large
2004-04-19 17:20:37 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by AJ
Post by l***@large.com
I guess I just don't see a hard core lesbian like Shane
being attracted to a married bisexual woman with a
husband and a kid.
I realize this is make believe but I can't make myself believe. <g>
Maybe if Cheri and her husband were currently separated, I'd find it
easier. But I don't know a single life-long lesbian who would be
willing to have sex with a woman who was actively sleeping with,
and married to, a man. In fact, I don't know any lesbian who would do
that. I'm not saying there aren't any... I'm sure there are. But when
the ratio is so low it seems a dumb thing to write a drama around,
if'n ya want people to readily accept it.
I do know (sadly more than one) those lesbians who choose married
women to have affairs with. Having seen them repeat the behavior more
than once I can tell that it is on purpose and it's to avoid winding
up in a committed relationship. If the woman were not married then
the chance would exist that she might (horrors!) move in and become
permanent. The married women all most always go back to the hubby.
"The women almost always go back to the hubby." So are the women
*happily* married and sexually active with their husbands like they
portray Cheri, or are they separated or having problems with their
marriages? Because like I said above, if Cheri and her husband were
separated I could see it easier.

I do agree the thing about not wanting a commitment could fit with
Shane, except they set this whole thing up by Shane saying (on the
Seaman) that she'd *like* waking up to the same woman every day and
intimated strongly she wanted to fall in love and commit.

I still think it is by far the exception to the rule -- by far -- that
lesbians sleep with women who are concurrently having sex with men.
STD's and male sexual history being the reasons...plus it's just plain
old unattractive to most lesbians. But maybe living in LA all my life
I'm in a bubble and don't realize it.

OTOH this series is supposed to be taking place in LA... ;-D

***@large
Tulgey Wood
2004-04-19 15:37:15 UTC
Permalink
[snip}

[re Bette & CC:]
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
IAC they were close enough to the opaque stuff to practically be
fucking in the gallery.
Exactly. Might as well have left the door open and told everyone they
were part of the Provocations exhibit. Hmmm, wonder if Bette tried
*that* one on Tina? :-P "I was trying to provoke you, dear. It was all
part of the exhibit. Provocations? Get it? D'oh? Sometimes I think
you just don't pay enough attention to my work."
ROTFLMAO!! We were *all* a little provoked, weren't we! And isn't it
funny what we were provoked _by_ (Tina catching Bette and CC playing
hand-footsie), when the exhibits themselves were like, "whatever." :-D
(I never thought of it like that before but I'm really laughing now
thinking of it... imagine watching the ep alongside some church-going
person... they'd be like, "My god! Is that supposed to be Jesus having
sex? And what's that? A man with his testacles bound?!" and we'd be
like, "Gasp! Look! Tina sees Bette taking Cc's hand!!")
LOL!!
ROTFL!! Too right.
Post by l***@large.com
We are so totally healthy. :-D
We have our priorities straight. :-D

Actually, everyone was provoked, weren't they. Bette provoked Tina,
Cheri provoked Shane, Marina provoked Jenny, Tim tried to provoke Jenny,
Dana provoked Alice. The only ones who weren't provoked were the ones
who needed it: Tanya the psycho and Candy the carpenter.

[snip]
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
The sex scene afterwards was an emotional roller coaster... wondering at
first if Bette was raping Tina... watching the hurt explode into the
love that's obviously there. Laurel was amazing. So was Jennifer but it
was really Tina's scene. It was intense.
Yes, it was. Were we meant to flash back to CC telling Bette she can't
always be in control? Hmmm, I think soooo....
One of those instances again though, where they use the same device
without camoflauging it in enough. "Suddenly everyone is throwing
Bette on her back." There are reasons for it of course, but it was
done a little crudely as far as the device itself went. It shouldn't
have been so noticeable [in the way we noticed it].
It had a lot of visual impact. How do you think they might have made
the point that Bette was out of control? <--Serious question--you're
very good with scenarios.
I wasn't very clear actually. Throwing Bette on her back wasn't the
problem, but that [imo] it called attention to itself as a device by
ringing too loudly (vs subtley) of the previous scene with CC and Bette.
The 2nd toss-down should have hit us fresh and organic... not sprung CC
to mind like a mousetrap.
Okay, now I get ya.
Post by l***@large.com
We still would have made the connection to "Bette's out of control."
It could have been something as simple as filming both toss-downs
from the same angles, or distance, or perhaps that Bette landed
exactly the same way in both scenes...maybe it was dialog... I can't
say what made it heavy-handed without watching it again.
After we've seen it again, we should compare notes.
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
I wonder if Tanya ends up telling her friend that she killed Dana's
cat (the girl she called when she kicked Mr. Piddles off the bed)...
then it gets back to Dana somehow. I do hope she ends up finding out,
even aside from being woo'd away by Alice.
I do, too. And they'll have to say she intentionally overdosed him,
because failing to give him a few doses of tapazole wouldn't have killed
him. First degree murder if she overdosed him. Man-two if she
underdosed him. IAC, her comeuppance is life in a psychiatric ward.
And shave her head and eyebrows!
And have Nurse Ratched administer her meds: "If Tanya doesn't want to
take her medication orally, I'm sure we can arrange that she have it
some other way."
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
IAC, Shane's not stupid--love is. I don't think she picked out Cheri
to fall in love with--obviously, it's just something that happened
to her, like everything else in her life. Things just happen to
Shane. :-(
I hear you, but Shane is not that naive. She views attractions and
relationships objectovely, from the outside. The second she met Cheri,
before they ever spoke a word, she already knew she was a married
socialite, and she soon found out she had a kid. You'd have to walk
around with no boundaries whatsoever and no common sense filter, to
allow yourself to then develop feelings for someone like that.
Agreed. But sometimes developing feelings for someone can't be
controlled. IAC, Shane is inexperienced in the feelings department,
isn't she? And if this is the first time she's had these sort of
feelings for anyone, maybe they happened to her in spite of her filters?
All true. I guess I just don't see a hard core lesbian like Shane being
attracted to a married bisexual woman with a husband and a kid.
Yeah, that's the rub.
Post by l***@large.com
I realize this is make believe but I can't make myself believe. <g>
Well, it's a rather huge rub, so who can blame you? :-D
Post by l***@large.com
Maybe if Cheri and her husband were currently separated, I'd find it
easier. But I don't know a single life-long lesbian who would be willing
to have sex with a woman who was actively sleeping with, and married to,
a man. In fact, I don't know any lesbian who would do that. I'm not
saying there aren't any... I'm sure there are. But when the ratio is so
low it seems a dumb thing to write a drama around, if'n ya want people
to readily accept it.
OTOH if they had shown us those 10 episodes we missed where this was all
accounted for... ;-D
Yeah, they shouldn't have left us to fill in such enormous blanks. How
to get Shane from point A to point B in ten steps? Should be relatively
simple, except for that one pesky little detail of point B being in
another universe. :-D

[snip]
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
The little trapeze girl seems nice (and she turned out to be a pretty
good actor too imo),
I think so, too. And Robin is sweet, too.
Post by l***@large.com
and I liked it that they all ended up all playing a board game
together rather than in bed.
Oh, gag. Jenny might have suggested it, and Gene, being a guy, was
probably keen, but I expect Robin put the skids on it. :-D
Gag? Really? I really liked that. It was like they all had sexual
intentions and desires, but then they all just said, oh hell.
Gag, yes. A threesome with Gene? Not my thing. :-O~~~~~~~~
Wait! A threesome with Gene? Egads woman, where did you get that idea?
ROTFL!! You said that you liked that they ended up playing a board game
together rather than in bed. I gagged on the idea of them being in bed
together, not the board game.
Post by l***@large.com
I was saying the opposite... that I was glad the writers *didn't* go
there and had them playing a board game instead!
I'm glad, too. I thought the board game was great.

[snip]

[re Kit & Ivan:]
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
Pam seemed to get a kick out of Kelly's pain when the number started
and Kit boosted herself up on to the hood of the car (or situated
herself anyway) she was looking at Kelly and it looked to me like
there was this "knowing" exchange between them of "here we go."
I'll have to watch the ep again to look for that. I wonder if the look
you're talking about is the "torn" one Kit had, as if she were thinking,
"oh, god, she *is* everything I want in a man!"
No! (That was funny for other reasons!) Right when Ivan comes around
from getting her hat outa the car and is about to start singing (or has
JUST started) and Kit kind of boosts herself up on the hood and she's in
the b.g. of the shot, and she's looking at Ivan and has kind of this
shitty grin or playfulness in her eyes like they've cracked up about
this off camera.
Right, I'll look for it. (I have all these notes! Don't recall having
to watch TV with notes since never.) :-D
l***@large
2004-04-19 17:45:38 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
I wonder if Tanya ends up telling her friend that she killed Dana's
cat (the girl she called when she kicked Mr. Piddles off the bed)...
then it gets back to Dana somehow. I do hope she ends up finding out,
even aside from being woo'd away by Alice.
I do, too. And they'll have to say she intentionally overdosed him,
because failing to give him a few doses of tapazole wouldn't have killed
him. First degree murder if she overdosed him. Man-two if she
underdosed him. IAC, her comeuppance is life in a psychiatric ward.
And shave her head and eyebrows!
And have Nurse Ratched administer her meds: "If Tanya doesn't want to
take her medication orally, I'm sure we can arrange that she have it
some other way."
LOL!! Just do it off camera.

Or...




...neh.

[...]
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
Re: Shane and Cheri
OTOH if they had shown us those 10 episodes we missed where this was all
accounted for... ;-D
Yeah, they shouldn't have left us to fill in such enormous blanks. How
to get Shane from point A to point B in ten steps? Should be relatively
simple, except for that one pesky little detail of point B being in
another universe. :-D
That's it! The parallel universe field-of-all-probabilities theory!
Post by Tulgey Wood
[snip]
Post by l***@large.com
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
The little trapeze girl seems nice (and she turned out to be a pretty
good actor too imo),
I think so, too. And Robin is sweet, too.
Post by l***@large.com
and I liked it that they all ended up all playing a board game
together rather than in bed.
Oh, gag. Jenny might have suggested it, and Gene, being a guy, was
probably keen, but I expect Robin put the skids on it. :-D
Gag? Really? I really liked that. It was like they all had sexual
intentions and desires, but then they all just said, oh hell.
Gag, yes. A threesome with Gene? Not my thing. :-O~~~~~~~~
Wait! A threesome with Gene? Egads woman, where did you get that idea?
ROTFL!! You said that you liked that they ended up playing a board game
together rather than in bed. I gagged on the idea of them being in bed
together, not the board game.
[Horschack] "Aaaaaah-ow!"
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large.com
I was saying the opposite... that I was glad the writers *didn't* go
there and had them playing a board game instead!
I'm glad, too. I thought the board game was great.
Enough that I didn't even bother to wonder what Jenny was doing with
one in her meager possesions. I mean, hey. Robin coulda had one in her
car. There's lots of down time as a circus performer. ;) (cue Judy
Tanuda: "It coulda happened!")
Tulgey Wood
2004-04-21 04:15:38 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
I thought the board game was great.
Enough that I didn't even bother to wonder what Jenny was doing with
one in her meager possesions.
Could you tell what game it was? Candy Land, was it?
Post by l***@large
I mean, hey. Robin coulda had one in her car. There's lots of down
time as a circus performer. ;) (cue Judy Tanuda: "It coulda
happened!")
LOL!! Aren't they always sitting outside their tents playing checkers?
l***@large
2004-04-21 18:39:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tulgey Wood
[snip]
Post by l***@large
Post by Tulgey Wood
I thought the board game was great.
Enough that I didn't even bother to wonder what Jenny was doing with
one in her meager possesions.
Could you tell what game it was? Candy Land, was it?
<g> I tried to see the second time around but we were having to peer
through the goddam window again and the sills were in the way.
Post by Tulgey Wood
Post by l***@large
I mean, hey. Robin coulda had one in her car. There's lots of down
time as a circus performer. ;) (cue Judy Tanuda: "It coulda
happened!")
LOL!! Aren't they always sitting outside their tents playing checkers?
Exactly what I was thinking. ;)
Smith
2004-04-17 16:12:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tulgey Wood
LOL! That makes me think of Steve Martin's step-by-step instructions
for getting out of paying taxes: "First, get a million dollars...."
Once you get past those pesky sticking points, *anything* is possible.
Dude, you blew that bit. It was "How to become a millionaire. First, get a
million dollars..."

You are thinking of the "I promise not to depreciate non-taxable items
brought forth in the previous tax year."
Tulgey Wood
2004-04-18 03:15:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Smith
Post by Tulgey Wood
LOL! That makes me think of Steve Martin's step-by-step instructions
for getting out of paying taxes: "First, get a million dollars...."
Once you get past those pesky sticking points, *anything* is possible.
Dude, you blew that bit.
LOL! Dude, I do not blow bits. That routine has been imprinted on my
neural net circa I first heard it before you were out of nappies. ;-P
Post by Smith
It was "How to become a millionaire. First, get a million dollars..."
You are thinking of the "I promise not to depreciate non-taxable items
brought forth in the previous tax year."
Nah, *you're* thinking of that. I couldn't begin to do. (Sorry, two
right brains.)

The bit wasn't to do with becoming a millionaire, but with the irony of
ignorance as a defense:

How to get out of paying taxes? Firstgetamilliondollars. Next, when
the tax man asks why you've never paid taxes, say, "I forgot. I forgot
to pay my taxes." How to get away with murder? Tell the police, "I
forgot. I forgot that murder was a capital offense."
Smith
2004-04-18 05:30:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tulgey Wood
How to get out of paying taxes? Firstgetamilliondollars. Next, when
the tax man asks why you've never paid taxes, say, "I forgot. I forgot
to pay my taxes." How to get away with murder? Tell the police, "I
forgot. I forgot that murder was a capital offense."
Dude, I've got the record right here. The tax bit had nothing to do with
the millionaire bit.
Tulgey Wood
2004-04-19 15:35:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Smith
Post by Tulgey Wood
How to get out of paying taxes? Firstgetamilliondollars. Next, when
the tax man asks why you've never paid taxes, say, "I forgot. I forgot
to pay my taxes." How to get away with murder? Tell the police, "I
forgot. I forgot that murder was a capital offense."
Dude, I've got the record right here.
Dude, I have Steve Martin right here (*and* Marshall McLuhan). :-P
Post by Smith
The tax bit had nothing to do with the millionaire bit.
Yes, now you have it. :-)
aaron
2004-04-14 06:36:46 UTC
Permalink
***@large.com wrote:
<snip>
Post by l***@large.com
The sex scene afterwards was an emotional roller coaster... wondering at
first if Bette was raping Tina... watching the hurt explode into the
love that's obviously there. Laurel was amazing. So was Jennifer but it
was really Tina's scene. It was intense. But I wouldn't have liked it if
Tina stayed with Bette afterwards. It was good how it ended with her at
Alice's... the scene of her walking to the board.... very good.
<snip>

that was a sex scene? if a guy took bette's place, would you still
consider that a sex scene? not in my opinion. i watched the scene
several times, and it was a fight scene to me. except for the last 5
seconds, tina's screaming at bette to get off of her and fuck off.

having read maybe 20 opinions on the scene, many women see it as you do.
as a guy, i see it from the perspective of, i could never do that to a
woman without feeling like a rapist. go figure.
--
(signature here)
l***@large
2004-04-14 17:12:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by aaron
<snip>
Post by l***@large.com
The sex scene afterwards was an emotional roller coaster... wondering at
first if Bette was raping Tina... watching the hurt explode into the
love that's obviously there. Laurel was amazing. So was Jennifer but it
was really Tina's scene. It was intense. But I wouldn't have liked it if
Tina stayed with Bette afterwards. It was good how it ended with her at
Alice's... the scene of her walking to the board.... very good.
<snip>
that was a sex scene? if a guy took bette's place, would you still
consider that a sex scene?
Just a sec... I'm recovering from that visual... !

No. Because men and women don't communicate on the same level as
women/women and women have an intuitive understanding of one another
b/c we share the same emotional plane (generally speaking and in
context of Bette and Tina and this scene). Men/women are
apples/oranges. What applies in a F/F relationship cannot necessarily
be transferred and applied to a M/F scenario.

[...]
Post by aaron
having read maybe 20 opinions on the scene, many women see it as you do.
as a guy, i see it from the perspective of, i could never do that to a
woman without feeling like a rapist. [...]
And you shouldn't (ever think you can do that to a woman). In the
ultimate outcome Tina and Bette are of equal strength and mind and
heart and know each other enough to know what they are doing and not
doing to one another. A man's sexual drive, motives, and emotions are
very different from a woman, plus a man is much stronger and can
control a woman physically against her will. A man physically forcing
himself on a woman against her will is disgusting and unacceptable in
*any* scenario.

But Bette didn't force Tina to make love (as the scene was written).
They were an equal match and their power kept flip-flopping as one
would acquiesce to the pain of the other. Bette was desperate to show
Tina that she still loves her -- that she still desperately wants what
they have. Tina got it. Tina basically said back, "I want it too,
dammit!" ...and by leaving and going to Alice she was saying, "But you
fucked up good and now everything has changed."

I appreciate your query as a man, wondering why that was "ok" with
women while if 'you' did it, it wouldn't be. There *is* a "double
standard" from your POV perhaps, but it is not an unfair one. It's
based on the realities of the differences between men and women. (And
btw there are plenty of lesbians who would not behave that way either
and would consider themselves being attacked if their lover did what
Bette did.) But as it was written it was not intended to be abusive
imo. And I didn't see it as abusive when all was said and done...
though it had me wondering for the first few seconds.

But to *you* all I can say is, "Don't try this at home."

***@large
aaron
2004-04-14 18:06:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@large
Post by aaron
<snip>
Post by l***@large.com
The sex scene afterwards was an emotional roller coaster... wondering at
first if Bette was raping Tina... watching the hurt explode into the
love that's obviously there. Laurel was amazing. So was Jennifer but it
was really Tina's scene. It was intense. But I wouldn't have liked it if
Tina stayed with Bette afterwards. It was good how it ended with her at
Alice's... the scene of her walking to the board.... very good.
<snip>
that was a sex scene? if a guy took bette's place, would you still
consider that a sex scene?
Just a sec... I'm recovering from that visual... !
No. Because men and women don't communicate on the same level as
women/women and women have an intuitive understanding of one another
b/c we share the same emotional plane (generally speaking and in
context of Bette and Tina and this scene). Men/women are
apples/oranges. What applies in a F/F relationship cannot necessarily
be transferred and applied to a M/F scenario.
[...]
Post by aaron
having read maybe 20 opinions on the scene, many women see it as you do.
as a guy, i see it from the perspective of, i could never do that to a
woman without feeling like a rapist. [...]
And you shouldn't (ever think you can do that to a woman). In the
ultimate outcome Tina and Bette are of equal strength and mind and
heart and know each other enough to know what they are doing and not
doing to one another. A man's sexual drive, motives, and emotions are
very different from a woman, plus a man is much stronger and can
control a woman physically against her will. A man physically forcing
himself on a woman against her will is disgusting and unacceptable in
*any* scenario.
But Bette didn't force Tina to make love (as the scene was written).
They were an equal match and their power kept flip-flopping as one
would acquiesce to the pain of the other. Bette was desperate to show
Tina that she still loves her -- that she still desperately wants what
they have. Tina got it. Tina basically said back, "I want it too,
dammit!" ...and by leaving and going to Alice she was saying, "But you
fucked up good and now everything has changed."
I appreciate your query as a man, wondering why that was "ok" with
women while if 'you' did it, it wouldn't be. There *is* a "double
standard" from your POV perhaps, but it is not an unfair one. It's
based on the realities of the differences between men and women. (And
btw there are plenty of lesbians who would not behave that way either
and would consider themselves being attacked if their lover did what
Bette did.) But as it was written it was not intended to be abusive
imo. And I didn't see it as abusive when all was said and done...
though it had me wondering for the first few seconds.
But to *you* all I can say is, "Don't try this at home."
i would suggest that you don't try it at home either. i don't think it
was ok for a woman to do what bette did either. for you to suggest
otherwise is baffling to me. would you care to take tina's place in
this scene? (do you condone bette's actions?) couch it in whatever
"women understand women" niceties you want.
--
(signature here)
l***@large
2004-04-14 19:42:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by aaron
Post by l***@large
Post by aaron
<snip>
Post by l***@large.com
The sex scene afterwards was an emotional roller coaster... wondering at
first if Bette was raping Tina... watching the hurt explode into the
love that's obviously there. [...]
<snip>
that was a sex scene? if a guy took bette's place, would you still
consider that a sex scene?
Just a sec... I'm recovering from that visual... !
No. Because men and women don't communicate on the same level as
women/women and women have an intuitive understanding of one another
b/c we share the same emotional plane (generally speaking and in
context of Bette and Tina and this scene). Men/women are
apples/oranges. What applies in a F/F relationship cannot necessarily
be transferred and applied to a M/F scenario.
[...]
Post by aaron
having read maybe 20 opinions on the scene, many women see it as you do.
as a guy, i see it from the perspective of, i could never do that to a
woman without feeling like a rapist. [...]
And you shouldn't (ever think you can do that to a woman). In the
ultimate outcome Tina and Bette are of equal strength and mind and
heart and know each other enough to know what they are doing and not
doing to one another. A man's sexual drive, motives, and emotions are
very different from a woman, plus a man is much stronger and can
control a woman physically against her will. A man physically forcing
himself on a woman against her will is disgusting and unacceptable in
*any* scenario.
But Bette didn't force Tina to make love (as the scene was written).
They were an equal match and their power kept flip-flopping as one
would acquiesce to the pain of the other. Bette was desperate to show
Tina that she still loves her -- that she still desperately wants what
they have. Tina got it. Tina basically said back, "I want it too,
dammit!" ...and by leaving and going to Alice she was saying, "But you
fucked up good and now everything has changed."
I appreciate your query as a man, wondering why that was "ok" with
women while if 'you' did it, it wouldn't be. There *is* a "double
standard" from your POV perhaps, but it is not an unfair one. It's
based on the realities of the differences between men and women. (And
btw there are plenty of lesbians who would not behave that way either
and would consider themselves being attacked if their lover did what
Bette did.) But as it was written it was not intended to be abusive
imo. And I didn't see it as abusive when all was said and done...
though it had me wondering for the first few seconds.
But to *you* all I can say is, "Don't try this at home."
i would suggest that you don't try it at home either.
Obviously that was somewhat of a joke. No one "tries" this on for
size. It is organic to a particular dynamic and set of circumstances,
or it isn't. But it would never be appropriate between a man and a
woman for reasons already stated.
Post by aaron
i don't think it was ok for a woman to do what bette did either.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. And as I said in my post: "And
btw there are plenty of lesbians who would not behave that way either
and would consider themselves being attacked if their lover did what
Bette did."
Post by aaron
for you to suggest otherwise is baffling to me.
I don't know why it should be baffling since I explained myself.
Post by aaron
would you care to take tina's place in this scene?
Are you really seriously asking me if I would like Jennifer Beals
playing a character madly in love with me and feeling so passionate
about possibly losing me that she's ripping my clothes off to be
intimate with me?
Post by aaron
(do you condone bette's actions?)
It's not about that. Her actions cannot be separated from the story
and circumstances. I already said what I felt about the scene. That at
first I wasn't sure where they were going with it, but it did not turn
out to be abusive as I saw it. I saw passion. Mutual passion. And lots
of hurt. If you saw abuse then that's why there is no explanantion,
b/c none is possible.
Post by aaron
couch it in whatever "women understand women" niceties you want.
Not a nicety, A reality. And what was 'right' or 'organic' to Tina and
Bette isn't necessarily 'right' and 'organic' to any old lesbian
couple. But in this story, in this scene, with these characters, and
the way it played out, I thought it was great drama.

***@large
Smith
2004-04-17 05:45:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by aaron
i would suggest that you don't try it at home either. i don't think it
was ok for a woman to do what bette did either. for you to suggest
otherwise is baffling to me. would you care to take tina's place in
this scene? (do you condone bette's actions?) couch it in whatever
"women understand women" niceties you want.
I saw absolutely NOTHING good in that scene. It was completely over the
top, gratuitous, unrealistic, and sick. It was a desperation move by the
producers/writers of that show. Just something to get buzz, because things
were getting awfully boring on that show.

I know Showtime has really stuck it out for this one, but given the low
ratings, I wonder what the real reason is for carrying on with this show?
It just didn't deliver the goods and fulfill all of the preseason hype.
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